When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?
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@JaredBusch said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
2 x Windows Server Standard with SA.
1 x SQL Svr, 4 core.
Done....WOW... so expensive!
Well, plus the second server. This stuff adds up. It is almost half the cost to not have the HA, and nearly all of the cost for Windows.
In percentage of total cost, it's enormous. Is it a lot for the needs of the business, no way to tell. But in the SMB, those are absolutely big numbers to most companies.
No. Those are the total licenses. You don't need to duplicate that number for the second server.
You do, except for SQL Server. Windows gives you two VMs per host. You need two hosts of licenses instead of one. That's double.
Node1: Windows Server License x 1 = 2 VMs of Windows Server allowed.
VM1 = Windows Server Standard with IIS.
VM2 = Windows Server Standard with SQL Svr Standard. (1 copy of SQL Svr standard allows you to install SQL Server on a second windows server standard, for free, and use high availability groups for the database).Node2: Windows Server License x 1
VM1 = Windows Server Standard with IIS
VM2 = Windows Server Standard (with the allowed free version of SQL Server for high availability groups).In total... 2 copies of Windows Server Standard with SA (£1800 total), plus 1 x SQL Server set of licenses for however many cores you want to license.
Yes, SQL Server is expensive... but its something most SMBs have and the standard version allows you to get to a highly available application level setup.
No, this is wrong.
You have to double everything if you ever think you are going to migrate servers for routine maintenance.
With this... you don't have to migrate servers at all. Why cant you see that. You can set HAProxy to point to the webserver on node 2, and run powershell to move the availability group to the SQL Server on node 2... then you can do whatever the hell you want to node 1. No need to migrate anything....... BUT.... if you wanted to, you still can as Hyper-V has the ability to move a VM from node1, to node2, without shares storage at all, for FREE! VMWare needs vMotion, which was NOT.
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@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@JaredBusch said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
2 x Windows Server Standard with SA.
1 x SQL Svr, 4 core.
Done....WOW... so expensive!
Well, plus the second server. This stuff adds up. It is almost half the cost to not have the HA, and nearly all of the cost for Windows.
In percentage of total cost, it's enormous. Is it a lot for the needs of the business, no way to tell. But in the SMB, those are absolutely big numbers to most companies.
No. Those are the total licenses. You don't need to duplicate that number for the second server.
You do, except for SQL Server. Windows gives you two VMs per host. You need two hosts of licenses instead of one. That's double.
Node1: Windows Server License x 1 = 2 VMs of Windows Server allowed.
VM1 = Windows Server Standard with IIS.
VM2 = Windows Server Standard with SQL Svr Standard. (1 copy of SQL Svr standard allows you to install SQL Server on a second windows server standard, for free, and use high availability groups for the database).Node2: Windows Server License x 1
VM1 = Windows Server Standard with IIS
VM2 = Windows Server Standard (with the allowed free version of SQL Server for high availability groups).In total... 2 copies of Windows Server Standard with SA (£1800 total), plus 1 x SQL Server set of licenses for however many cores you want to license.
Yes, SQL Server is expensive... but its something most SMBs have and the standard version allows you to get to a highly available application level setup.
No, this is wrong.
You have to double everything if you ever think you are going to migrate servers for routine maintenance.
With this... you don't have to migrate servers at all. Why cant you see that. You can set HAProxy to point to the webserver on node 2, and run powershell to move the availability group to the SQL Server on node 2... then you can do whatever the hell you want to node 1. No need to migrate anything....... BUT.... if you wanted to, you still can as Hyper-V has the ability to move a VM from node1, to node2, without shares storage at all, for FREE! VMWare needs vMotion, which was NOT.
Yes, if you have two copies of everything you certainly get benefits. No question there. It is only "how much is that worth." Downtime in the SMB is normally free or nearly so.
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@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@JaredBusch said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
I guess we are going to have to disagree on this. The flexibility being able to do maintenance as and when, during the day, on both VMs (as we have application level HA), and hardware (as we have hardware level HA) is very important. We are able to do what we need when we need, without having to plan downtime or hold off on changes to fit in to a schedule. Having expensive admins stay late to do work adds up, when if its BAU during the day as its all HA, for very little extra work, you make savings and can be more agile.
If you have 24x7 needs, that can make sense. But admins after hours is free in all but the oddest of cases. Literally no cost at all 99% of the time.
Sadly, that is often the case. But I like to be better than that. I don't want my teams staying late to do work. They have family. Go home. Here, you can do what you need during your normal day. Go home without a phone always on. Turn off and chill. That is an important thing.
That is horrible business process thinking.
How? How on earth is me wanting teams to go home and forget work as were 'good' horrible? Are your subordinates nothing to you?! Insane. How many hosts on Spiceworks do we get about employers asking for unreasonable out of hours from their overworked staff... that is horrible.
Wanting staff to go home and forget about work and enjoy their time is absolutely not horrible in any way.
You are right, it's great thinking. But it isn't what we are talking about. We're not seeing how what you are doing helps the employees go home early, we only see how it makes IT less valuable to the business and makes the business less competitive.
If your key concern was employee happiness, wouldn't you keep them at home full time and let them work whenever it makes sense? That's what both @JaredBusch and I do with our staff. So to you, you are being nice and letting people go home early and spending extra money to let them do that. But to us, you are not giving your staff flexibility to be home all the time and making them have less leverage for better benefits by lowering their value to the business (and ergo lowering the value of the business.)
I get that you want to let them go home and forget about work. But that sounds less than ideal to me. Working for the Fortune 100, I had it better. I totally appreciate the feel that you think you are being really nice, but I feel like you might be missing the big picture or at least not seeing why we don't see it as giving the employees anything while the business pays for something of possibly no value.
I'm not from fortune 100 perspective. I'm from SMB perspective. Regardless of what I want, most SMBs want arses in seats during the normal business day. Therefore, since they have to be 8am - 5pm, because companies want people I seats, when they go home...... they go home.
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@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@JaredBusch said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
I guess we are going to have to disagree on this. The flexibility being able to do maintenance as and when, during the day, on both VMs (as we have application level HA), and hardware (as we have hardware level HA) is very important. We are able to do what we need when we need, without having to plan downtime or hold off on changes to fit in to a schedule. Having expensive admins stay late to do work adds up, when if its BAU during the day as its all HA, for very little extra work, you make savings and can be more agile.
If you have 24x7 needs, that can make sense. But admins after hours is free in all but the oddest of cases. Literally no cost at all 99% of the time.
Sadly, that is often the case. But I like to be better than that. I don't want my teams staying late to do work. They have family. Go home. Here, you can do what you need during your normal day. Go home without a phone always on. Turn off and chill. That is an important thing.
That is horrible business process thinking.
How? How on earth is me wanting teams to go home and forget work as were 'good' horrible? Are your subordinates nothing to you?! Insane. How many hosts on Spiceworks do we get about employers asking for unreasonable out of hours from their overworked staff... that is horrible.
Wanting staff to go home and forget about work and enjoy their time is absolutely not horrible in any way.
You are right, it's great thinking. But it isn't what we are talking about. We're not seeing how what you are doing helps the employees go home early, we only see how it makes IT less valuable to the business and makes the business less competitive.
If your key concern was employee happiness, wouldn't you keep them at home full time and let them work whenever it makes sense? That's what both @JaredBusch and I do with our staff. So to you, you are being nice and letting people go home early and spending extra money to let them do that. But to us, you are not giving your staff flexibility to be home all the time and making them have less leverage for better benefits by lowering their value to the business (and ergo lowering the value of the business.)
I get that you want to let them go home and forget about work. But that sounds less than ideal to me. Working for the Fortune 100, I had it better. I totally appreciate the feel that you think you are being really nice, but I feel like you might be missing the big picture or at least not seeing why we don't see it as giving the employees anything while the business pays for something of possibly no value.
I'm not from fortune 100 perspective. I'm from SMB perspective. Regardless of what I want, most SMBs want arses in seats during the normal business day. Therefore, since they have to be 8am - 5pm, because companies want people I seats, when they go home...... they go home.
Right, so the issue is that you have a bad culture that doesn't value the people and you are working to curtail that as much as possible. I kind of get that, but would management feel the same way if IT was being more aggressively valuable? Has IT ever presented what reckless spending that is for the company to do and how against the interests of the business it is? Is the business aware that it is paying thousands of dollars in licensing for that one bit of bad culture?
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@Jimmy9008 When i need to do off hours maintenance, like on the weekends, I goto the boss and say, "Im going to be here 8hours this weekend, so i am taking half days on Thurs/Friday."
Any reasonable employer should accept this trade-off. -
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
I'm not from fortune 100 perspective. I'm from SMB perspective. Regardless of what I want, most SMBs want arses in seats during the normal business day.
Jared and I are both SMB, but definitely value business over arses in seats. It's better for the business, it's better for the employees. Everyone wins. There is no downside.
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@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@JaredBusch said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
2 x Windows Server Standard with SA.
1 x SQL Svr, 4 core.
Done....WOW... so expensive!
Well, plus the second server. This stuff adds up. It is almost half the cost to not have the HA, and nearly all of the cost for Windows.
In percentage of total cost, it's enormous. Is it a lot for the needs of the business, no way to tell. But in the SMB, those are absolutely big numbers to most companies.
No. Those are the total licenses. You don't need to duplicate that number for the second server.
You do, except for SQL Server. Windows gives you two VMs per host. You need two hosts of licenses instead of one. That's double.
Node1: Windows Server License x 1 = 2 VMs of Windows Server allowed.
VM1 = Windows Server Standard with IIS.
VM2 = Windows Server Standard with SQL Svr Standard. (1 copy of SQL Svr standard allows you to install SQL Server on a second windows server standard, for free, and use high availability groups for the database).Node2: Windows Server License x 1
VM1 = Windows Server Standard with IIS
VM2 = Windows Server Standard (with the allowed free version of SQL Server for high availability groups).In total... 2 copies of Windows Server Standard with SA (£1800 total), plus 1 x SQL Server set of licenses for however many cores you want to license.
Yes, SQL Server is expensive... but its something most SMBs have and the standard version allows you to get to a highly available application level setup.
No, this is wrong.
You have to double everything if you ever think you are going to migrate servers for routine maintenance.
With this... you don't have to migrate servers at all. Why cant you see that. You can set HAProxy to point to the webserver on node 2, and run powershell to move the availability group to the SQL Server on node 2... then you can do whatever the hell you want to node 1. No need to migrate anything....... BUT.... if you wanted to, you still can as Hyper-V has the ability to move a VM from node1, to node2, without shares storage at all, for FREE! VMWare needs vMotion, which was NOT.
Do you have a link to the "free" install of SQL Server Standard? I'm not finding it on MS' site. Their high level licensing docs state otherwise.
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@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@JaredBusch said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
I guess we are going to have to disagree on this. The flexibility being able to do maintenance as and when, during the day, on both VMs (as we have application level HA), and hardware (as we have hardware level HA) is very important. We are able to do what we need when we need, without having to plan downtime or hold off on changes to fit in to a schedule. Having expensive admins stay late to do work adds up, when if its BAU during the day as its all HA, for very little extra work, you make savings and can be more agile.
If you have 24x7 needs, that can make sense. But admins after hours is free in all but the oddest of cases. Literally no cost at all 99% of the time.
Sadly, that is often the case. But I like to be better than that. I don't want my teams staying late to do work. They have family. Go home. Here, you can do what you need during your normal day. Go home without a phone always on. Turn off and chill. That is an important thing.
That is horrible business process thinking.
How? How on earth is me wanting teams to go home and forget work as were 'good' horrible? Are your subordinates nothing to you?! Insane. How many hosts on Spiceworks do we get about employers asking for unreasonable out of hours from their overworked staff... that is horrible.
Wanting staff to go home and forget about work and enjoy their time is absolutely not horrible in any way.
You are right, it's great thinking. But it isn't what we are talking about. We're not seeing how what you are doing helps the employees go home early, we only see how it makes IT less valuable to the business and makes the business less competitive.
If your key concern was employee happiness, wouldn't you keep them at home full time and let them work whenever it makes sense? That's what both @JaredBusch and I do with our staff. So to you, you are being nice and letting people go home early and spending extra money to let them do that. But to us, you are not giving your staff flexibility to be home all the time and making them have less leverage for better benefits by lowering their value to the business (and ergo lowering the value of the business.)
I get that you want to let them go home and forget about work. But that sounds less than ideal to me. Working for the Fortune 100, I had it better. I totally appreciate the feel that you think you are being really nice, but I feel like you might be missing the big picture or at least not seeing why we don't see it as giving the employees anything while the business pays for something of possibly no value.
I'm not from fortune 100 perspective. I'm from SMB perspective. Regardless of what I want, most SMBs want arses in seats during the normal business day. Therefore, since they have to be 8am - 5pm, because companies want people I seats, when they go home...... they go home.
Right, so the issue is that you have a bad culture that doesn't value the people and you are working to curtail that as much as possible. I kind of get that, but would management feel the same way if IT was being more aggressively valuable? Has IT ever presented what reckless spending that is for the company to do and how against the interests of the business it is? Is the business aware that it is paying thousands of dollars in licensing for that one bit of bad culture?
3Where is the reckless spending? Its an extra 1 x Windows Server Standard license (£900). That's it.
The host we would need anyway is doing HA with VMWare... which to have vMotion with (something OOB with Hyper-V), is around 4-5k like I said earlier. -
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@JaredBusch said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
I guess we are going to have to disagree on this. The flexibility being able to do maintenance as and when, during the day, on both VMs (as we have application level HA), and hardware (as we have hardware level HA) is very important. We are able to do what we need when we need, without having to plan downtime or hold off on changes to fit in to a schedule. Having expensive admins stay late to do work adds up, when if its BAU during the day as its all HA, for very little extra work, you make savings and can be more agile.
If you have 24x7 needs, that can make sense. But admins after hours is free in all but the oddest of cases. Literally no cost at all 99% of the time.
Sadly, that is often the case. But I like to be better than that. I don't want my teams staying late to do work. They have family. Go home. Here, you can do what you need during your normal day. Go home without a phone always on. Turn off and chill. That is an important thing.
That is horrible business process thinking.
How? How on earth is me wanting teams to go home and forget work as were 'good' horrible? Are your subordinates nothing to you?! Insane. How many hosts on Spiceworks do we get about employers asking for unreasonable out of hours from their overworked staff... that is horrible.
Wanting staff to go home and forget about work and enjoy their time is absolutely not horrible in any way.
You are right, it's great thinking. But it isn't what we are talking about. We're not seeing how what you are doing helps the employees go home early, we only see how it makes IT less valuable to the business and makes the business less competitive.
If your key concern was employee happiness, wouldn't you keep them at home full time and let them work whenever it makes sense? That's what both @JaredBusch and I do with our staff. So to you, you are being nice and letting people go home early and spending extra money to let them do that. But to us, you are not giving your staff flexibility to be home all the time and making them have less leverage for better benefits by lowering their value to the business (and ergo lowering the value of the business.)
I get that you want to let them go home and forget about work. But that sounds less than ideal to me. Working for the Fortune 100, I had it better. I totally appreciate the feel that you think you are being really nice, but I feel like you might be missing the big picture or at least not seeing why we don't see it as giving the employees anything while the business pays for something of possibly no value.
I'm not from fortune 100 perspective. I'm from SMB perspective. Regardless of what I want, most SMBs want arses in seats during the normal business day. Therefore, since they have to be 8am - 5pm, because companies want people I seats, when they go home...... they go home.
Right, so the issue is that you have a bad culture that doesn't value the people and you are working to curtail that as much as possible. I kind of get that, but would management feel the same way if IT was being more aggressively valuable? Has IT ever presented what reckless spending that is for the company to do and how against the interests of the business it is? Is the business aware that it is paying thousands of dollars in licensing for that one bit of bad culture?
3Where is the reckless spending? Its an extra 1 x Windows Server Standard license (£900). That's it.
The host we would need anyway is doing HA with VMWare... which to have vMotion with (something OOB with Hyper-V), is around 4-5k like I said earlier.I realize that SMBs in the UK spend nothing like the US, but to us what you are describing is huge money for normal SMBs.
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@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@JaredBusch said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
2 x Windows Server Standard with SA.
1 x SQL Svr, 4 core.
Done....WOW... so expensive!
Well, plus the second server. This stuff adds up. It is almost half the cost to not have the HA, and nearly all of the cost for Windows.
In percentage of total cost, it's enormous. Is it a lot for the needs of the business, no way to tell. But in the SMB, those are absolutely big numbers to most companies.
No. Those are the total licenses. You don't need to duplicate that number for the second server.
You do, except for SQL Server. Windows gives you two VMs per host. You need two hosts of licenses instead of one. That's double.
Node1: Windows Server License x 1 = 2 VMs of Windows Server allowed.
VM1 = Windows Server Standard with IIS.
VM2 = Windows Server Standard with SQL Svr Standard. (1 copy of SQL Svr standard allows you to install SQL Server on a second windows server standard, for free, and use high availability groups for the database).Node2: Windows Server License x 1
VM1 = Windows Server Standard with IIS
VM2 = Windows Server Standard (with the allowed free version of SQL Server for high availability groups).In total... 2 copies of Windows Server Standard with SA (£1800 total), plus 1 x SQL Server set of licenses for however many cores you want to license.
Yes, SQL Server is expensive... but its something most SMBs have and the standard version allows you to get to a highly available application level setup.
No, this is wrong.
You have to double everything if you ever think you are going to migrate servers for routine maintenance.
With this... you don't have to migrate servers at all. Why cant you see that. You can set HAProxy to point to the webserver on node 2, and run powershell to move the availability group to the SQL Server on node 2... then you can do whatever the hell you want to node 1. No need to migrate anything....... BUT.... if you wanted to, you still can as Hyper-V has the ability to move a VM from node1, to node2, without shares storage at all, for FREE! VMWare needs vMotion, which was NOT.
Do you have a link to the "free" install of SQL Server Standard? I'm not finding it on MS' site. Their high level licensing docs state otherwise.
Passive only, and it's not free, you have to buy SA to get it, so while the second node is cheaper, it isn't free.
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@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@JaredBusch said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
2 x Windows Server Standard with SA.
1 x SQL Svr, 4 core.
Done....WOW... so expensive!
Well, plus the second server. This stuff adds up. It is almost half the cost to not have the HA, and nearly all of the cost for Windows.
In percentage of total cost, it's enormous. Is it a lot for the needs of the business, no way to tell. But in the SMB, those are absolutely big numbers to most companies.
No. Those are the total licenses. You don't need to duplicate that number for the second server.
You do, except for SQL Server. Windows gives you two VMs per host. You need two hosts of licenses instead of one. That's double.
Node1: Windows Server License x 1 = 2 VMs of Windows Server allowed.
VM1 = Windows Server Standard with IIS.
VM2 = Windows Server Standard with SQL Svr Standard. (1 copy of SQL Svr standard allows you to install SQL Server on a second windows server standard, for free, and use high availability groups for the database).Node2: Windows Server License x 1
VM1 = Windows Server Standard with IIS
VM2 = Windows Server Standard (with the allowed free version of SQL Server for high availability groups).In total... 2 copies of Windows Server Standard with SA (£1800 total), plus 1 x SQL Server set of licenses for however many cores you want to license.
Yes, SQL Server is expensive... but its something most SMBs have and the standard version allows you to get to a highly available application level setup.
No, this is wrong.
You have to double everything if you ever think you are going to migrate servers for routine maintenance.
With this... you don't have to migrate servers at all. Why cant you see that. You can set HAProxy to point to the webserver on node 2, and run powershell to move the availability group to the SQL Server on node 2... then you can do whatever the hell you want to node 1. No need to migrate anything....... BUT.... if you wanted to, you still can as Hyper-V has the ability to move a VM from node1, to node2, without shares storage at all, for FREE! VMWare needs vMotion, which was NOT.
Do you have a link to the "free" install of SQL Server Standard? I'm not finding it on MS' site. Their high level licensing docs state otherwise.
Passive only, and it's not free, you have to buy SA to get it, so while the second node is cheaper, it isn't free.
I was just looking for that myself
also, I did say SA previously (I think).
Yes passive, but that's fine for us and brings us online in mere seconds if something happens. With VMWare, am I correct that the 1 x SQL Server on node1, would have to boot on node2 should something happen? - like I said before, I could still be wrong on that... -
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
Where is the reckless spending? Its an extra 1 x Windows Server Standard license (£900). That's it.
The host we would need anyway is doing HA with VMWare... which to have vMotion with (something OOB with Hyper-V), is around 4-5k like I said earlier.It's an extra physical server, extra Windows licenses, and SQL Server Standard SA upgrade. Plus the power draw, maintenance time and so forth. It adds up. Given that in the US, any server purchase is nearly impossible, having two often means you can't get funds to maintain them. Nearly doubling the budget is rarely trivial.
Why would you need VMware anyway? that makes no sense. We already covered that Vmware would never apply in a company of your size. Failover with someone else would be free. Of course, what we are pointing out, is that likely you don't need that either.
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@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@JaredBusch said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
I guess we are going to have to disagree on this. The flexibility being able to do maintenance as and when, during the day, on both VMs (as we have application level HA), and hardware (as we have hardware level HA) is very important. We are able to do what we need when we need, without having to plan downtime or hold off on changes to fit in to a schedule. Having expensive admins stay late to do work adds up, when if its BAU during the day as its all HA, for very little extra work, you make savings and can be more agile.
If you have 24x7 needs, that can make sense. But admins after hours is free in all but the oddest of cases. Literally no cost at all 99% of the time.
Sadly, that is often the case. But I like to be better than that. I don't want my teams staying late to do work. They have family. Go home. Here, you can do what you need during your normal day. Go home without a phone always on. Turn off and chill. That is an important thing.
That is horrible business process thinking.
How? How on earth is me wanting teams to go home and forget work as were 'good' horrible? Are your subordinates nothing to you?! Insane. How many hosts on Spiceworks do we get about employers asking for unreasonable out of hours from their overworked staff... that is horrible.
Wanting staff to go home and forget about work and enjoy their time is absolutely not horrible in any way.
You are right, it's great thinking. But it isn't what we are talking about. We're not seeing how what you are doing helps the employees go home early, we only see how it makes IT less valuable to the business and makes the business less competitive.
If your key concern was employee happiness, wouldn't you keep them at home full time and let them work whenever it makes sense? That's what both @JaredBusch and I do with our staff. So to you, you are being nice and letting people go home early and spending extra money to let them do that. But to us, you are not giving your staff flexibility to be home all the time and making them have less leverage for better benefits by lowering their value to the business (and ergo lowering the value of the business.)
I get that you want to let them go home and forget about work. But that sounds less than ideal to me. Working for the Fortune 100, I had it better. I totally appreciate the feel that you think you are being really nice, but I feel like you might be missing the big picture or at least not seeing why we don't see it as giving the employees anything while the business pays for something of possibly no value.
I'm not from fortune 100 perspective. I'm from SMB perspective. Regardless of what I want, most SMBs want arses in seats during the normal business day. Therefore, since they have to be 8am - 5pm, because companies want people I seats, when they go home...... they go home.
Right, so the issue is that you have a bad culture that doesn't value the people and you are working to curtail that as much as possible. I kind of get that, but would management feel the same way if IT was being more aggressively valuable? Has IT ever presented what reckless spending that is for the company to do and how against the interests of the business it is? Is the business aware that it is paying thousands of dollars in licensing for that one bit of bad culture?
3Where is the reckless spending? Its an extra 1 x Windows Server Standard license (£900). That's it.
The host we would need anyway is doing HA with VMWare... which to have vMotion with (something OOB with Hyper-V), is around 4-5k like I said earlier.I realize that SMBs in the UK spend nothing like the US, but to us what you are describing is huge money for normal SMBs.
£900 here, for the places I've seen, is cheap.
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@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@JaredBusch said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
2 x Windows Server Standard with SA.
1 x SQL Svr, 4 core.
Done....WOW... so expensive!
Well, plus the second server. This stuff adds up. It is almost half the cost to not have the HA, and nearly all of the cost for Windows.
In percentage of total cost, it's enormous. Is it a lot for the needs of the business, no way to tell. But in the SMB, those are absolutely big numbers to most companies.
No. Those are the total licenses. You don't need to duplicate that number for the second server.
You do, except for SQL Server. Windows gives you two VMs per host. You need two hosts of licenses instead of one. That's double.
Node1: Windows Server License x 1 = 2 VMs of Windows Server allowed.
VM1 = Windows Server Standard with IIS.
VM2 = Windows Server Standard with SQL Svr Standard. (1 copy of SQL Svr standard allows you to install SQL Server on a second windows server standard, for free, and use high availability groups for the database).Node2: Windows Server License x 1
VM1 = Windows Server Standard with IIS
VM2 = Windows Server Standard (with the allowed free version of SQL Server for high availability groups).In total... 2 copies of Windows Server Standard with SA (£1800 total), plus 1 x SQL Server set of licenses for however many cores you want to license.
Yes, SQL Server is expensive... but its something most SMBs have and the standard version allows you to get to a highly available application level setup.
No, this is wrong.
You have to double everything if you ever think you are going to migrate servers for routine maintenance.
With this... you don't have to migrate servers at all. Why cant you see that. You can set HAProxy to point to the webserver on node 2, and run powershell to move the availability group to the SQL Server on node 2... then you can do whatever the hell you want to node 1. No need to migrate anything....... BUT.... if you wanted to, you still can as Hyper-V has the ability to move a VM from node1, to node2, without shares storage at all, for FREE! VMWare needs vMotion, which was NOT.
Do you have a link to the "free" install of SQL Server Standard? I'm not finding it on MS' site. Their high level licensing docs state otherwise.
Passive only, and it's not free, you have to buy SA to get it, so while the second node is cheaper, it isn't free.
I was just looking for that myself
also, I did say SA previously (I think).
Yes passive, but that's fine for us and brings us online in mere seconds if something happens. With VMWare, am I correct that the 1 x SQL Server on node1, would have to boot on node2 should something happen? - like I said before, I could still be wrong on that...HA with anything will be seconds, probably not as fast as SQL Server failover, but similar. You rarely notice it at all, but a trading app would show the hiccup, for example. A nuclear power plant, you'd not want it.
FT with Vmware or Xen (free) will do it without losing a single network packet. Failover can be instant.
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@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@JaredBusch said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
I guess we are going to have to disagree on this. The flexibility being able to do maintenance as and when, during the day, on both VMs (as we have application level HA), and hardware (as we have hardware level HA) is very important. We are able to do what we need when we need, without having to plan downtime or hold off on changes to fit in to a schedule. Having expensive admins stay late to do work adds up, when if its BAU during the day as its all HA, for very little extra work, you make savings and can be more agile.
If you have 24x7 needs, that can make sense. But admins after hours is free in all but the oddest of cases. Literally no cost at all 99% of the time.
Sadly, that is often the case. But I like to be better than that. I don't want my teams staying late to do work. They have family. Go home. Here, you can do what you need during your normal day. Go home without a phone always on. Turn off and chill. That is an important thing.
That is horrible business process thinking.
How? How on earth is me wanting teams to go home and forget work as were 'good' horrible? Are your subordinates nothing to you?! Insane. How many hosts on Spiceworks do we get about employers asking for unreasonable out of hours from their overworked staff... that is horrible.
Wanting staff to go home and forget about work and enjoy their time is absolutely not horrible in any way.
You are right, it's great thinking. But it isn't what we are talking about. We're not seeing how what you are doing helps the employees go home early, we only see how it makes IT less valuable to the business and makes the business less competitive.
If your key concern was employee happiness, wouldn't you keep them at home full time and let them work whenever it makes sense? That's what both @JaredBusch and I do with our staff. So to you, you are being nice and letting people go home early and spending extra money to let them do that. But to us, you are not giving your staff flexibility to be home all the time and making them have less leverage for better benefits by lowering their value to the business (and ergo lowering the value of the business.)
I get that you want to let them go home and forget about work. But that sounds less than ideal to me. Working for the Fortune 100, I had it better. I totally appreciate the feel that you think you are being really nice, but I feel like you might be missing the big picture or at least not seeing why we don't see it as giving the employees anything while the business pays for something of possibly no value.
I'm not from fortune 100 perspective. I'm from SMB perspective. Regardless of what I want, most SMBs want arses in seats during the normal business day. Therefore, since they have to be 8am - 5pm, because companies want people I seats, when they go home...... they go home.
Right, so the issue is that you have a bad culture that doesn't value the people and you are working to curtail that as much as possible. I kind of get that, but would management feel the same way if IT was being more aggressively valuable? Has IT ever presented what reckless spending that is for the company to do and how against the interests of the business it is? Is the business aware that it is paying thousands of dollars in licensing for that one bit of bad culture?
3Where is the reckless spending? Its an extra 1 x Windows Server Standard license (£900). That's it.
The host we would need anyway is doing HA with VMWare... which to have vMotion with (something OOB with Hyper-V), is around 4-5k like I said earlier.I realize that SMBs in the UK spend nothing like the US, but to us what you are describing is huge money for normal SMBs.
£900 here, for the places I've seen, is cheap.
Exactly, in the US, it is not. I work in the US, UK and broader in the EU and am aware that US concepts of expensive are cheap in Europe. This is partially why the US believes European businesses are wasteful and inefficient. Totally different concepts of cost effective.
That doesn't make US sensibilities right and European wrong. But it is seen as key reason why the US has high average incomes, we waste far less in business. More profits mean higher salaries for less work. $1,000 to make other costly decisions seem less costly in the US is seen as pretty wasteful. Anything that doesn't produce profit is considered wasteful.
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@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
Where is the reckless spending? Its an extra 1 x Windows Server Standard license (£900). That's it.
The host we would need anyway is doing HA with VMWare... which to have vMotion with (something OOB with Hyper-V), is around 4-5k like I said earlier.It's an extra physical server, extra Windows licenses, and SQL Server Standard SA upgrade. Plus the power draw, maintenance time and so forth. It adds up. Given that in the US, any server purchase is nearly impossible, having two often means you can't get funds to maintain them. Nearly doubling the budget is rarely trivial.
Why would you need VMware anyway? that makes no sense. We already covered that Vmware would never apply in a company of your size. Failover with someone else would be free. Of course, what we are pointing out, is that likely you don't need that either.
The post was asking when to consider VMWare over Hyper-V, and at an early stage HA came up as a reason... hence saying what I am saying. For any HA, you would need that second server, even with HyperV. So if you need that you need that, its not double cost... its needed. To have the second server for HA, with VMWare... is even more cost.
If you need HA, you have to have that second server. So its not an additional cost - as both VMWare and HyperV, if you need HA would have that cost.
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This is why US companies love doing sales in Europe. In the US, companies want to do things with tight margins. In Europe, you can upsell all kinds of services easily because the culture is to "buy solutions" making it a salesman's wonderland
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@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
Where is the reckless spending? Its an extra 1 x Windows Server Standard license (£900). That's it.
The host we would need anyway is doing HA with VMWare... which to have vMotion with (something OOB with Hyper-V), is around 4-5k like I said earlier.It's an extra physical server, extra Windows licenses, and SQL Server Standard SA upgrade. Plus the power draw, maintenance time and so forth. It adds up. Given that in the US, any server purchase is nearly impossible, having two often means you can't get funds to maintain them. Nearly doubling the budget is rarely trivial.
Why would you need VMware anyway? that makes no sense. We already covered that Vmware would never apply in a company of your size. Failover with someone else would be free. Of course, what we are pointing out, is that likely you don't need that either.
The post was asking when to consider VMWare over Hyper-V, and at an early stage HA came up as a reason... hence saying what I am saying. For any HA, you would need that second server, even with HyperV. So if you need that you need that, its not double cost... its needed. To have the second server for HA, with VMWare... is even more cost.
If you need HA, you have to have that second server. So its not an additional cost - as both VMWare and HyperV, if you need HA would have that cost.
IF you need HA, you need two servers. But HA is free beyond that (except with Vmware.) But first you have to decide what the value of HA is to your business. Most SMBs, (like 95%) should not have HA.
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@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@JaredBusch said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
2 x Windows Server Standard with SA.
1 x SQL Svr, 4 core.
Done....WOW... so expensive!
Well, plus the second server. This stuff adds up. It is almost half the cost to not have the HA, and nearly all of the cost for Windows.
In percentage of total cost, it's enormous. Is it a lot for the needs of the business, no way to tell. But in the SMB, those are absolutely big numbers to most companies.
No. Those are the total licenses. You don't need to duplicate that number for the second server.
You do, except for SQL Server. Windows gives you two VMs per host. You need two hosts of licenses instead of one. That's double.
Node1: Windows Server License x 1 = 2 VMs of Windows Server allowed.
VM1 = Windows Server Standard with IIS.
VM2 = Windows Server Standard with SQL Svr Standard. (1 copy of SQL Svr standard allows you to install SQL Server on a second windows server standard, for free, and use high availability groups for the database).Node2: Windows Server License x 1
VM1 = Windows Server Standard with IIS
VM2 = Windows Server Standard (with the allowed free version of SQL Server for high availability groups).In total... 2 copies of Windows Server Standard with SA (£1800 total), plus 1 x SQL Server set of licenses for however many cores you want to license.
Yes, SQL Server is expensive... but its something most SMBs have and the standard version allows you to get to a highly available application level setup.
No, this is wrong.
You have to double everything if you ever think you are going to migrate servers for routine maintenance.
With this... you don't have to migrate servers at all. Why cant you see that. You can set HAProxy to point to the webserver on node 2, and run powershell to move the availability group to the SQL Server on node 2... then you can do whatever the hell you want to node 1. No need to migrate anything....... BUT.... if you wanted to, you still can as Hyper-V has the ability to move a VM from node1, to node2, without shares storage at all, for FREE! VMWare needs vMotion, which was NOT.
Do you have a link to the "free" install of SQL Server Standard? I'm not finding it on MS' site. Their high level licensing docs state otherwise.
Passive only, and it's not free, you have to buy SA to get it, so while the second node is cheaper, it isn't free.
I was just looking for that myself
also, I did say SA previously (I think).
Yes passive, but that's fine for us and brings us online in mere seconds if something happens. With VMWare, am I correct that the 1 x SQL Server on node1, would have to boot on node2 should something happen? - like I said before, I could still be wrong on that...HA with anything will be seconds, probably not as fast as SQL Server failover, but similar. You rarely notice it at all, but a trading app would show the hiccup, for example. A nuclear power plant, you'd not want it.
FT with Vmware or Xen (free) will do it without losing a single network packet. Failover can be instant.
I will have to read up on that... but my comments again, were in relation to people saying vMotion = HA etc.
So, is memory of the VM stored on the shares storage too or something, so when the node fails, a partner can instantly grab the running state of the VM? [probably way off, just finding it difficult to see how the running state of a VM on node1 in VMWare, would go down if that node died and not have to boot up on node2]... Here I could be way off as not done much in VMWare... just knew vMotion != HA.
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@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
Where is the reckless spending? Its an extra 1 x Windows Server Standard license (£900). That's it.
The host we would need anyway is doing HA with VMWare... which to have vMotion with (something OOB with Hyper-V), is around 4-5k like I said earlier.It's an extra physical server, extra Windows licenses, and SQL Server Standard SA upgrade. Plus the power draw, maintenance time and so forth. It adds up. Given that in the US, any server purchase is nearly impossible, having two often means you can't get funds to maintain them. Nearly doubling the budget is rarely trivial.
Why would you need VMware anyway? that makes no sense. We already covered that Vmware would never apply in a company of your size. Failover with someone else would be free. Of course, what we are pointing out, is that likely you don't need that either.
The post was asking when to consider VMWare over Hyper-V, and at an early stage HA came up as a reason... hence saying what I am saying. For any HA, you would need that second server, even with HyperV. So if you need that you need that, its not double cost... its needed. To have the second server for HA, with VMWare... is even more cost.
If you need HA, you have to have that second server. So its not an additional cost - as both VMWare and HyperV, if you need HA would have that cost.
IF you need HA, you need two servers. But HA is free beyond that (except with Vmware.) But first you have to decide what the value of HA is to your business. Most SMBs, (like 95%) should not have HA.
Agree. And for us, we do need it. And as I tried to show, we do that without having to license VMWare just through using Hyper-V. Same kit. Same licenses we need for Windows Server and SQL Server as that's the db of choice for our devs... all the same... but no VMWare.
