Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
@scottalanmiller What about Windows 10? Everyone should probably disable Windows update. All of those major OS updates will probably break something, and even if it's within a year of purchase - the Manufacturer shouldn't expect to support the product.
I don't follow. Windows 10 is current. Absolutely nothing like the conversation that we are having. You are still mixing patches and updates with new OS releases, I think.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
@scottalanmiller I've personally have had an X61, X200, X220, X230 and I've usually been able to go from one windows version to the next with excellent driver support. The X220 wasn't windows 10 capable, but when you consider it's release date vs when windows 10 was available I can't blame them for that.
Generally, yes. There is no doubt that most vendors will update the drivers within a certain about of time. I can't speak to way Asus felt that that model had no need for the next OS. Perhaps it was consumer, or end of life or there was a technology conflict that caused issues with the new version. It's totally reasonable to look for and find drivers for newer OSes that release after purchase. But it is not reasonable to simply expect that it will always happen. At least Asus properly supported the version that they sold and shipped, unlike my experiences and many others with Lenovo.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
the Manufacturer shouldn't expect to support the product.
You are confusing the concept of supporting what was sold with supporting doing something that was not part of the product specification. This would be similar to demanding that a manufacturer support a different OS entirely (not quite, but close.) If the vendor makes no claims to supporting Windows 8.1 or FreeBSD 11, you can't be upset if they really don't support those things.
If an OS is going to be released anytime soon enough for this to be at all reasonable to think, it is also soon enough that the manufacturers will already have support before release or a support statement. So if you are talking about a laptop that was purchased a month before Windows 8.1 released, you should have had access to know if Asus had committed to supporting the OS you intended to run on the hardware or not.
It's fine to buy it and take a risk and decide later if you are going to move to the newer OS or not depending on what is available. Or to try it and see if the old drivers work (if the OS move is small enough, this generally works, as this didn't, it implies that the OS update was far larger than you feel that it was.) But unless Asus lied about having 8.1 support available or coming, I don't see any ground for the complaints.
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It's totally valid to be like "man, Asus doesn't seem to support newer OSes that release after their hardware is EOL very much". And that could be a feature of why you like Dell, because they tend to do that more. Although that doesn't feel likely, if you are comparing commercial to commercial and consumer to consumer. I bet that it is similar.
But that's very different than thinking Asus is bad for not doing that thing. That would be like hating and totally avoiding Dell for not having a connector port that you want. Sure, it might be a factor in choosing that model or not, but it makes no sense to be upset with the vendor for not having it. That's a different kind of reaction.
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@scottalanmiller I'm trying to point out - specifically from an end user perspective - the 8.1 update isn't the same as saying, "Hey lets go down to Fry's and buy this new OS & install it." Windows 8.1 wasn't a mystery that you had to search for to find - Microsoft was prompting people to install it. As a result a lot of users are going to end up installing it, and I feel like if Asus was already testing it for their new hardware that was yet to be released, they should have back tracked and supported already released hardware that came with Windows 8. That's just how I see it.
Again - we all have different experiences. I hate all Lenovo products that aren't a T/X series and have never recommended them. And for the most part I only recommend Dell's latitude lineup to my customers.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
@scottalanmiller I'm trying to point out - specifically from an end user perspective - the 8.1 update isn't the same as saying, "Hey lets go down to Fry's and buy this new OS & install it."
Right, and I'm pointing out that that is wrong. That's exactly what it was.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
Windows 8.1 wasn't a mystery that you had to search for to find - Microsoft was prompting people to install it. As a result a lot of users are going to end up installing it, and I feel like if Asus was already testing it for their new hardware that was yet to be released, they should have back tracked and supported already released hardware that came with Windows 8. That's just how I see it.
That's a problem between Microsoft and end users. As IT folks, we know that 8.1 was a full OS update, that no end user should have changed their OS without checking with their hardware compatibility list from the vendor and that the vendor is completely blameless here.
You can't use end user confusion from other actions as a reason to be upset with Asus for something that they didn't do.
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@scottalanmiller I feel you're looking at this from someone who works in IT. A prompt that says, "please update to get the latest features" is not the same as someone who says, lets go buy a new OS. For example, my grandpa would do the former, and has no clue about the latter.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
Again - we all have different experiences. I hate all Lenovo products that aren't a T/X series and have never recommended them. And for the most part I only recommend Dell's latitude lineup to my customers.
Not really. We have different experiences only because we are experiencing the same actions in different ways. Using your Asus experience and my (and thousands of others) Lenovo experience - we can compile these. It's not that your Asus experience was bad, it's that you reacted to it differently. And it is not that Lenovo hasn't stolen your data or put you at risk or violated your trust, you just reacted to it differently.
Or look at it another way. Fully knowing what Asus did to you, I'd bee A-OK with them doing that to me, they did nothing wrong. Knowing what Lenovo did to me and others, I don't feel that you should be okay with them no matter how you perceive your own interactions with them.
Does that make sense? It's like "This guy is a bully, but he only beat up other people, not me, so I'm just fine with him."
All while at the same time, you know that he steals from other people and might be stealing from you and might just not have been caught doing it yet. But you still invite him over for dinner, even though he beat up your friends.
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@scottalanmiller I for the most part agree with your premise. Trust me - I told lots of my clients to not install Windows 10 (in fact I disabled the update in most cases) on their older hardware because I knew & didn't expect a lot of support for drivers. Having said that I look at the Windows 8.1 update differently. You can think I'm completely wrong. I'm okay with that.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
@scottalanmiller I feel you're looking at this from someone who works in IT. A prompt that says, "please update to get the latest features" is not the same as someone who says, lets go buy a new OS. For example, my grandpa would do the former, and has no clue about the latter.
Sure, but bring that back to Asus. This is not Asus' problem. They didn't make any prompts, they didn't tell people to update. New OSes come the way that you describe - in both Windows and Linux worlds. So while you are correct, consumers won't understand, you are upset with the wrong vendor. If MS did that, be upset with MS. If a consumer didn't pay attention, be upset with the consumer. Why are you upset with Asus, the only party that isn't at fault in your description of the events?
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
Having said that I look at the Windows 8.1 update differently. You can think I'm completely wrong. I'm okay with that.
It's a new kernel. It's a full update identical to all others. It is what it is. No matter how you slice it or dice it, Microsoft released a new OS.
Are you saying that Windows 2012 R2 was not a new OS from Windows 2012? Because it is, and that's 8 to 8.1. On the server side there was no weird naming convention like on the desktop side. It's totally clear when you look at it that way that it was a full OS step like 2008 to 2008 R2 to 2012 to 2012 R2 to 2016. Each was a full OS stepping within the NT 6 family.
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I'm not aware of MS having done misleading "just update without checking hardware" advertising to trick consumers, but I'm not totally surprised to hear it either. Honestly, though, this is the first that I've heard of this (that I remember.) I'm not saying that it isn't true, I'm sure it is. I wonder how many people saw this.
In reality, anyone in that position really needs desktop support assistance for home and should not be the admin of their own desktop. At some point, Windows desktops are for power users and not appropriate for end users who aren't prepared to manage them. There are many simpler, and cheaper, systems out there for people who don't want or need that responsibility.
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@scottalanmiller I understand 2012 to 2012 r2 was a full update. That's also a server OS. Again, I'm talking about looking at this entirely from the end user perspective. The Grandfathers/mothers of the world. That's all.
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The kernel versioning tells the most complete story. We've always had to go there to know what is going on...
Kernel Desktop OS Server OS NT 4 NT 4 NT 4 NT 5 Windows 2000 Windows 2000 NT 5.1 Windows XP Server 2003 NT 5.2 Server 2003 R2 NT 6 Vista 2008 NT 6.1 Windows 7 2008 R2 NT 6.2 Windows 8 2012 NT 6.3 Windows 8.1 2012 R2 NT 6.4 / 10 Windows 10 2016 With Windows 10, MS decided to rebrand the kernel tree. But NT 10 is considered to simply be NT 6.4. It was 6.4 at some point, then renamed. So for now, the 10 branch is still part of the 6 one.
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@scottalanmiller What OS would you have my grandparents use? Chrome OS? Certainly not Ubuntu. The only option is OSX or Windows...period. When my grandmother decides she wants to scan old photos and send them to their friends what OS will the scanners support? BTW My grandma really did that - she wasn't half bad at working on Windows.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
@scottalanmiller I understand 2012 to 2012 r2 was a full update. That's also a server OS.
It's the same OS, just branded (and licensed) for desktop or server. So if you understand one is a full update, you know that the other has to be. Same code top to bottom. The workstation just releases first as it doesn't have all of the add-on components and doesn't get as much testing time.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
Again, I'm talking about looking at this entirely from the end user perspective. The Grandfathers/mothers of the world. That's all.
See our thread on Linux naming. Consumers are always confused and should not be running Windows, honestly. I totally understand that grandmothers won't understand this. But that's neither here nor there. In no way is that an Asus problem and as IT we should work hard to shield innocent vendors from misplaced anger from confused consumers, not repeat it.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
Certainly not Ubuntu.
Ha. If the only other option is Windows, then obviously yes Ubuntu is better. It's simpler and easier. Of course it is just about the worst option in the Linux space, but it's far better than Windows for non-technical users (and yes, I've tested that.)
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
The only option is OSX or Windows...period.
That's just silly. Those are the two most extreme power user, high cost, not for normal consumers and certainly not for grandparents options. Those are the two I would specifically avoid in nearly all cases, especially the ones that you are talking about. Hardest to use, hardware to support, most costly.
