Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
Again - we all have different experiences. I hate all Lenovo products that aren't a T/X series and have never recommended them. And for the most part I only recommend Dell's latitude lineup to my customers.
Not really. We have different experiences only because we are experiencing the same actions in different ways. Using your Asus experience and my (and thousands of others) Lenovo experience - we can compile these. It's not that your Asus experience was bad, it's that you reacted to it differently. And it is not that Lenovo hasn't stolen your data or put you at risk or violated your trust, you just reacted to it differently.
Or look at it another way. Fully knowing what Asus did to you, I'd bee A-OK with them doing that to me, they did nothing wrong. Knowing what Lenovo did to me and others, I don't feel that you should be okay with them no matter how you perceive your own interactions with them.
Does that make sense? It's like "This guy is a bully, but he only beat up other people, not me, so I'm just fine with him."
All while at the same time, you know that he steals from other people and might be stealing from you and might just not have been caught doing it yet. But you still invite him over for dinner, even though he beat up your friends.
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@scottalanmiller I for the most part agree with your premise. Trust me - I told lots of my clients to not install Windows 10 (in fact I disabled the update in most cases) on their older hardware because I knew & didn't expect a lot of support for drivers. Having said that I look at the Windows 8.1 update differently. You can think I'm completely wrong. I'm okay with that.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
@scottalanmiller I feel you're looking at this from someone who works in IT. A prompt that says, "please update to get the latest features" is not the same as someone who says, lets go buy a new OS. For example, my grandpa would do the former, and has no clue about the latter.
Sure, but bring that back to Asus. This is not Asus' problem. They didn't make any prompts, they didn't tell people to update. New OSes come the way that you describe - in both Windows and Linux worlds. So while you are correct, consumers won't understand, you are upset with the wrong vendor. If MS did that, be upset with MS. If a consumer didn't pay attention, be upset with the consumer. Why are you upset with Asus, the only party that isn't at fault in your description of the events?
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
Having said that I look at the Windows 8.1 update differently. You can think I'm completely wrong. I'm okay with that.
It's a new kernel. It's a full update identical to all others. It is what it is. No matter how you slice it or dice it, Microsoft released a new OS.
Are you saying that Windows 2012 R2 was not a new OS from Windows 2012? Because it is, and that's 8 to 8.1. On the server side there was no weird naming convention like on the desktop side. It's totally clear when you look at it that way that it was a full OS step like 2008 to 2008 R2 to 2012 to 2012 R2 to 2016. Each was a full OS stepping within the NT 6 family.
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I'm not aware of MS having done misleading "just update without checking hardware" advertising to trick consumers, but I'm not totally surprised to hear it either. Honestly, though, this is the first that I've heard of this (that I remember.) I'm not saying that it isn't true, I'm sure it is. I wonder how many people saw this.
In reality, anyone in that position really needs desktop support assistance for home and should not be the admin of their own desktop. At some point, Windows desktops are for power users and not appropriate for end users who aren't prepared to manage them. There are many simpler, and cheaper, systems out there for people who don't want or need that responsibility.
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@scottalanmiller I understand 2012 to 2012 r2 was a full update. That's also a server OS. Again, I'm talking about looking at this entirely from the end user perspective. The Grandfathers/mothers of the world. That's all.
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The kernel versioning tells the most complete story. We've always had to go there to know what is going on...
Kernel Desktop OS Server OS NT 4 NT 4 NT 4 NT 5 Windows 2000 Windows 2000 NT 5.1 Windows XP Server 2003 NT 5.2 Server 2003 R2 NT 6 Vista 2008 NT 6.1 Windows 7 2008 R2 NT 6.2 Windows 8 2012 NT 6.3 Windows 8.1 2012 R2 NT 6.4 / 10 Windows 10 2016 With Windows 10, MS decided to rebrand the kernel tree. But NT 10 is considered to simply be NT 6.4. It was 6.4 at some point, then renamed. So for now, the 10 branch is still part of the 6 one.
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@scottalanmiller What OS would you have my grandparents use? Chrome OS? Certainly not Ubuntu. The only option is OSX or Windows...period. When my grandmother decides she wants to scan old photos and send them to their friends what OS will the scanners support? BTW My grandma really did that - she wasn't half bad at working on Windows.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
@scottalanmiller I understand 2012 to 2012 r2 was a full update. That's also a server OS.
It's the same OS, just branded (and licensed) for desktop or server. So if you understand one is a full update, you know that the other has to be. Same code top to bottom. The workstation just releases first as it doesn't have all of the add-on components and doesn't get as much testing time.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
Again, I'm talking about looking at this entirely from the end user perspective. The Grandfathers/mothers of the world. That's all.
See our thread on Linux naming. Consumers are always confused and should not be running Windows, honestly. I totally understand that grandmothers won't understand this. But that's neither here nor there. In no way is that an Asus problem and as IT we should work hard to shield innocent vendors from misplaced anger from confused consumers, not repeat it.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
Certainly not Ubuntu.
Ha. If the only other option is Windows, then obviously yes Ubuntu is better. It's simpler and easier. Of course it is just about the worst option in the Linux space, but it's far better than Windows for non-technical users (and yes, I've tested that.)
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
The only option is OSX or Windows...period.
That's just silly. Those are the two most extreme power user, high cost, not for normal consumers and certainly not for grandparents options. Those are the two I would specifically avoid in nearly all cases, especially the ones that you are talking about. Hardest to use, hardware to support, most costly.
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@scottalanmiller So you think the average grandfather will find Ubuntu easier/friendlier than OSX? Really?
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
When my grandmother decides she wants to scan old photos and send them to their friends what OS will the scanners support?
You've not been using Linux enough. One of the selling points is how much better support it has for peripherals. Ask my wife, Windows 10 she can barely ever get to print. Linux... prints without configuration. Every time, every printer.
I bet LInux will install find on that Asus that didn't take Windows 8.1, too. Supporting things is its wheelhouse.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
@scottalanmiller So you think the average grandfather will find Ubuntu easier/friendlier than OSX? Really?
Yes, without any doubt. Will there be exceptions, sure. Will there be exceptions from those that haven't already used Mac OSX, somewhere yes, but almost none. I'm dead serious. It's apples and oranges. SO much easier for that crowd.
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BTW I do have LOTS of older clients that I still support that are home users. A lot of them are on OSX. Its a piece of cake and they love it. They love the fun photo apps. The OS easily updates itself.
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Of course for most grandparents, the far and away best answer is ChromeOS. It's the easiest and safest and cheapest. Only power users need consider anything more (or gamers, of course.)
For that that need more, Linux Mint is currently my go to choice. Far easier than Ubuntu. But if you are only willing to consider the worst of Linux, then even Ubuntu shows how far better most Linux systems are for casual users than Windows or Mac OSX. Everything "just works". And no hidden costs, no pushy updates, no third party tools needed, no "go buy this thing", almost no malware attacks, no "I got a phone call from Windows tech support and they need my passwords."
Easy, solid, free.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
BTW I do have LOTS of older clients that I still support that are home users. A lot of them are on OSX. Its a piece of cake and they love it. They love the fun photo apps. The OS easily updates itself.
I'm not saying it is hard, it's just hard and expensive by comparison.
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So you seem to think that using a Linux desktop is hard. What have you tried to do that wasn't super simple? I can't think of any end user task that isn't as easy or, usually, far easier.
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But seriously, only real power users need more than a Chromebook. Heck, I only need a Chromebook. One of my developers moved to a Chromebook today. I'm on a Chromebook right now.
