Windows Server 2016 Pricing
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@crustachio when did your project planning start? I could have swarn it's been at least 6 months since they announced the per core pricing, but didn't list many details.
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@Dashrender said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
@crustachio when did your project planning start? I could have swarn it's been at least 6 months since they announced the per core pricing, but didn't list many details.
It's been a little while for sure, I thought we knew about it last year but I am probably imagining that.
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@crustachio said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
As a completely on-prem, VMware-invested environment, can anyone list any significant reasons not to just stick with 2012?
2012 R2 is fine for quite some time. But be sure to question the complete environment, not just one part of it. Why stick with VMware if VMware is causing other problems for you? Nothing against VMware, but it seems to be an issue in your environment.
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@scottalanmiller said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
@Dashrender said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
@crustachio when did your project planning start? I could have swarn it's been at least 6 months since they announced the per core pricing, but didn't list many details.
It's been a little while for sure, I thought we knew about it last year but I am probably imagining that.
I tend to agree it was last year - but because I didn't want someone calling me out on it and being wrong, I played it safe.
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@crustachio said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
It's really too late to change the trajectory of our ESXi deployment at this point, and if we did so just for the sake of this licensing cost we would spend more re-engineering the solution than just eating the licensing bump.
How much engineering is required in that small of an environment? And wouldn't good re-engineering now, even if it has a cost, that saves a lot down the road potentially be well worth it? Cut the technical debt ASAP rather than later once you have accumulated more of it?
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@Dashrender said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
@Dashrender said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
@crustachio when did your project planning start? I could have swarn it's been at least 6 months since they announced the per core pricing, but didn't list many details.
It's been a little while for sure, I thought we knew about it last year but I am probably imagining that.
I tend to agree it was last year - but because I didn't want someone calling me out on it and being wrong, I played it safe.
2012 R2 could be two years old, though.
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@scottalanmiller said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
@crustachio said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
But it's not just the sunk cost fallacy at play. Our storage and compute needs are contingent on using at least 3 hosts, and since we're running VSAN, 4 is the true safe minimum, to say nothing of disk groups and future storage growth.
Why are they contingent on three? And the investment in VSAN might be part of the problem, why choose a product that doesn't match your licensing needs? VSAN is great, but it's a high cost option, on top of VMware ESXi another high cost option that then incurs a higher WIndows cost... it seems like the approach assumes high cost anyway, is the Windows licensing really a problem then?
I totally get that the investment was "just made", but wouldn't alternatives like Hyper-V and Starwind from the MS camp or XenServer have not just eliminated the VMware and VSAN costs, but potentially the Windows ones, too?
We're local government and get VMware products for very, very low cost vs list. My manager is not confident in Hyper-V as a solution so never gave it a full shake. In hindsight, sure, Hyper-V + Starwind might be cost competitive, especially with Windows licensing in view. Not sure if there's anything I can do about that now, however.
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@Dashrender said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
@crustachio said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
We're local government
And... We're out.
Eh?
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@crustachio said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
@crustachio said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
But it's not just the sunk cost fallacy at play. Our storage and compute needs are contingent on using at least 3 hosts, and since we're running VSAN, 4 is the true safe minimum, to say nothing of disk groups and future storage growth.
Why are they contingent on three? And the investment in VSAN might be part of the problem, why choose a product that doesn't match your licensing needs? VSAN is great, but it's a high cost option, on top of VMware ESXi another high cost option that then incurs a higher WIndows cost... it seems like the approach assumes high cost anyway, is the Windows licensing really a problem then?
I totally get that the investment was "just made", but wouldn't alternatives like Hyper-V and Starwind from the MS camp or XenServer have not just eliminated the VMware and VSAN costs, but potentially the Windows ones, too?
We're local government and get VMware products for very, very low cost vs list. My manager is not confident in Hyper-V as a solution so never gave it a full shake. In hindsight, sure, Hyper-V + Starwind might be cost competitive, especially with Windows licensing in view. Not sure if there's anything I can do about that now, however.
How would Windows licensing play into this? Seems like an odd thing to include in the view. VMWare is going to cost more no matter what you don't have to include the additional cost of Windows licenses.
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@crustachio said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
@crustachio said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
But it's not just the sunk cost fallacy at play. Our storage and compute needs are contingent on using at least 3 hosts, and since we're running VSAN, 4 is the true safe minimum, to say nothing of disk groups and future storage growth.
Why are they contingent on three? And the investment in VSAN might be part of the problem, why choose a product that doesn't match your licensing needs? VSAN is great, but it's a high cost option, on top of VMware ESXi another high cost option that then incurs a higher WIndows cost... it seems like the approach assumes high cost anyway, is the Windows licensing really a problem then?
I totally get that the investment was "just made", but wouldn't alternatives like Hyper-V and Starwind from the MS camp or XenServer have not just eliminated the VMware and VSAN costs, but potentially the Windows ones, too?
We're local government and get VMware products for very, very low cost vs list. My manager is not confident in Hyper-V as a solution so never gave it a full shake. In hindsight, sure, Hyper-V + Starwind might be cost competitive, especially with Windows licensing in view. Not sure if there's anything I can do about that now, however.
So he believes in Microsoft enough to depend on them, but not enough to depend on them all the way
Hyper-V is definitely not proven like ESXi is, nor is it "as good." But Xen is more mature and just as proven as ESXi and totally free as well.
VMware cheap is good and makes it hard to beat. But if it is free, then where is the real issue? Just modify the hardware slightly, reduce compute load to two hosts. You have a light workload, right? Why the need for so many compute hosts?
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@scottalanmiller said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
@crustachio said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
It's really too late to change the trajectory of our ESXi deployment at this point, and if we did so just for the sake of this licensing cost we would spend more re-engineering the solution than just eating the licensing bump.
How much engineering is required in that small of an environment? And wouldn't good re-engineering now, even if it has a cost, that saves a lot down the road potentially be well worth it? Cut the technical debt ASAP rather than later once you have accumulated more of it?
I agree in hypothetical terms, but as the environment is already bought and paid for, save Windows licensing, what's the "lot of down the road cost" we risk suffering?
If we're comfortable riding 2012 into the sunset, and can afford Vmware licensing, I'm not sure what the future risk is.
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@scottalanmiller said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
@crustachio said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
@crustachio said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
But it's not just the sunk cost fallacy at play. Our storage and compute needs are contingent on using at least 3 hosts, and since we're running VSAN, 4 is the true safe minimum, to say nothing of disk groups and future storage growth.
Why are they contingent on three? And the investment in VSAN might be part of the problem, why choose a product that doesn't match your licensing needs? VSAN is great, but it's a high cost option, on top of VMware ESXi another high cost option that then incurs a higher WIndows cost... it seems like the approach assumes high cost anyway, is the Windows licensing really a problem then?
I totally get that the investment was "just made", but wouldn't alternatives like Hyper-V and Starwind from the MS camp or XenServer have not just eliminated the VMware and VSAN costs, but potentially the Windows ones, too?
We're local government and get VMware products for very, very low cost vs list. My manager is not confident in Hyper-V as a solution so never gave it a full shake. In hindsight, sure, Hyper-V + Starwind might be cost competitive, especially with Windows licensing in view. Not sure if there's anything I can do about that now, however.
So he believes in Microsoft enough to depend on them, but not enough to depend on them all the way
Something like that, yes. We still have 2003 DC's, so......... no comment.
Hyper-V is definitely not proven like ESXi is, nor is it "as good." But Xen is more mature and just as proven as ESXi and totally free as well.
VMware cheap is good and makes it hard to beat. But if it is free, then where is the real issue? Just modify the hardware slightly, reduce compute load to two hosts. You have a light workload, right? Why the need for so many compute hosts?
What's your definition of light workload?
We're looking at 48 VMs out of the gate, including a couple not-insignificant SQL servers, plus an immediate Exchange server.
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@crustachio said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
I agree in hypothetical terms, but as the environment is already bought and paid for, save Windows licensing, what's the "lot of down the road cost" we risk suffering?
This is where expensive software sucks people in.... they have two really good emotional ways to get people to keep spending money. First is the sunk cost fallacy, which you mentioned above, that feeling that since you paid for it, you should use it. The second is the belief that it is already paid for and incurs no more cost.
The second is untrue for many reasons. For example, with VMware you have to license it year after year, you pay continuously. And when you want to update, you pay even more. You pay for tools and invest in designs and other decisions around the fact that you have it - indirect investments in whatever design you have. In your case this includes VSAN and Windows licensing investments, at the very least, and probably a few others that haven't been mentioned.
And last, you invest in knowledge. You put your time and effort into learning what you are running currently. Right now, Hyper-V has little downside compared to ESXi. But in three years when your whole team has built all documentation, policies and procedures around ESXi that will be a very different picture.
Running systems always incurs debt. Putting your debt into your future rather than into your past is an important thing to always consider in IT.
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@crustachio said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
If we're comfortable riding 2012 into the sunset, and can afford Vmware licensing, I'm not sure what the future risk is.
"Can afford" should never be said in IT. IT's role is to find the "best" use for funds, but spend "what can be spent." It's not that any of it isn't affordable, it's what gets you the best environment.
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@crustachio said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
If we're comfortable riding 2012 into the sunset....
I have a rule of thumb about this... anything that something like this is said, it probably means you should not be on Windows
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Is Microsoft going to be selling 2 pack core license at the Standard Server License level as well?
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@scottalanmiller said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
@crustachio said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
I agree in hypothetical terms, but as the environment is already bought and paid for, save Windows licensing, what's the "lot of down the road cost" we risk suffering?
This is where expensive software sucks people in.... they have two really good emotional ways to get people to keep spending money. First is the sunk cost fallacy, which you mentioned above, that feeling that since you paid for it, you should use it. The second is the belief that it is already paid for and incurs no more cost.
The second is untrue for many reasons. For example, with VMware you have to license it year after year, you pay continuously. And when you want to update, you pay even more. You pay for tools and invest in designs and other decisions around the fact that you have it - indirect investments in whatever design you have. In your case this includes VSAN and Windows licensing investments, at the very least, and probably a few others that haven't been mentioned.
And last, you invest in knowledge. You put your time and effort into learning what you are running currently. Right now, Hyper-V has little downside compared to ESXi. But in three years when your whole team has built all documentation, policies and procedures around ESXi that will be a very different picture.
Running systems always incurs debt. Putting your debt into your future rather than into your past is an important thing to always consider in IT.
Thank you, there's a lot of good stuff to chew on in that post.
If I am completely honest and stop making excuses to rationalize our predicament, then yes, you're completely right. It is not too late to stop and rethink this. It would be a MAJOR uphill climb for me vs my manager though, as he is pushing for the VSAN deployment to be operational "yesterday", and I'm 99% there except for licensing.
I would also need to go back to square one in terms of research and education. I am comfortable administering a Vmware environment, I know VSAN pretty well and I've engineered the hardware and network (new 10GbE TOR switches) around VSAN. I have almost no comparable experience in terms of Hyper-V. Could I? Sure. But it's a factor. Like you said, investment in knowledge is a factor. And Vmware is something we already have a comfortable investment in knowledge and experience with.
Side point: Switching horses in midstream to Hyper-V would require using Starwind for the local shared storage component, as I don't think 2016's Storage Spaces Direct is the way we'd want to go. I have no idea what Starwind licensing is like, but wouldn't that be a similar argument about future costs as sticking with Vmware? Either way we will have to continue paying licensing.
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@scottalanmiller said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
@crustachio said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
If we're comfortable riding 2012 into the sunset....
I have a rule of thumb about this... anything that something like this is said, it probably means you should not be on Windows
See above... We have an unsettling amount of 2003 servers in production.
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@crustachio said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
@crustachio said in Windows Server 2016 Pricing:
If we're comfortable riding 2012 into the sunset....
I have a rule of thumb about this... anything that something like this is said, it probably means you should not be on Windows
See above... We have an unsettling amount of 2003 servers in production.
Perfect time to move away from Windows then. You've made it clear you can't afford it so investing the time and money into moving away from it would pay off in the long run.
The other thing is, your boss doesn't think the organization can afford Server 2016, does the organization (management) feel the same way?
