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    Burned by Eschewing Best Practices

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    • DashrenderD
      Dashrender @scottalanmiller
      last edited by

      @scottalanmiller said:

      @Dashrender said:

      Same goes if the outage is caused by Azure... I'm happy to put the blame where it belongs.. but rarely do cloud service providers tell us that information.

      But we know when we can work around or when we cannot. At least generally speaking.

      In a cloud solution like O365, you do?

      scottalanmillerS 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • scottalanmillerS
        scottalanmiller @Dashrender
        last edited by

        @Dashrender said:

        @scottalanmiller said:

        @Dashrender said:

        Same goes if the outage is caused by Azure... I'm happy to put the blame where it belongs.. but rarely do cloud service providers tell us that information.

        But we know when we can work around or when we cannot. At least generally speaking.

        In a cloud solution like O365, you do?

        Generally. While it is possible to not be the case, can you think of any circumstance where a cloud provider is not down but you cannot reach them to verify while also not knowing that you have a more significant outage?

        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
        • DashrenderD
          Dashrender
          last edited by

          You lost me again.

          I think you're blending Cloud provider outages with my local onsite outages.

          If O365 is having an outage - other than I can't access their services, it has nothing to do with my local services.

          scottalanmillerS 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • DashrenderD
            Dashrender
            last edited by

            Perhaps you saying... I'm in the local helpdesk and I get a call - hey Exchange isn't responding.. is it down?

            I tell them I have to look into it and get back to them.

            I dig around and discover that my local ISP is down.

            When I call the user back I'm not going to say, oh yeah. Exchange is down.. oh and yeah, everything else on the internet is also...

            nah - instead I'm going to say - hey our connection to the internet is down. Anything we access through online services is inaccessible because of that.

            scottalanmillerS 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • scottalanmillerS
              scottalanmiller @Dashrender
              last edited by

              @Dashrender said:

              If O365 is having an outage - other than I can't access their services, it has nothing to do with my local services.

              right, but you asked if I knew that or not. And I do, in nearly all cases.

              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • scottalanmillerS
                scottalanmiller @Dashrender
                last edited by

                @Dashrender said:

                Perhaps you saying... I'm in the local helpdesk and I get a call - hey Exchange isn't responding.. is it down?

                I tell them I have to look into it and get back to them.

                I dig around and discover that my local ISP is down.

                When I call the user back I'm not going to say, oh yeah. Exchange is down.. oh and yeah, everything else on the internet is also...

                nah - instead I'm going to say - hey our connection to the internet is down. Anything we access through online services is inaccessible because of that.

                Exactly. In a case like that you would know that you have no reason to suspect that Exchange is down. You can also hop on your phone and determine, almost certainly, that it is up.

                DashrenderD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • DashrenderD
                  Dashrender @scottalanmiller
                  last edited by

                  @scottalanmiller said:

                  @Dashrender said:

                  Perhaps you saying... I'm in the local helpdesk and I get a call - hey Exchange isn't responding.. is it down?

                  I tell them I have to look into it and get back to them.

                  I dig around and discover that my local ISP is down.

                  When I call the user back I'm not going to say, oh yeah. Exchange is down.. oh and yeah, everything else on the internet is also...

                  nah - instead I'm going to say - hey our connection to the internet is down. Anything we access through online services is inaccessible because of that.

                  Exactly. In a case like that you would know that you have no reason to suspect that Exchange is down. You can also hop on your phone and determine, almost certainly, that it is up.

                  But why does this matter? No one is blaming Exchange for being down in this case. Can you restate the question you think I'm asking?

                  scottalanmillerS 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • scottalanmillerS
                    scottalanmiller @Dashrender
                    last edited by

                    @Dashrender said:

                    @scottalanmiller said:

                    @Dashrender said:

                    Perhaps you saying... I'm in the local helpdesk and I get a call - hey Exchange isn't responding.. is it down?

                    I tell them I have to look into it and get back to them.

                    I dig around and discover that my local ISP is down.

                    When I call the user back I'm not going to say, oh yeah. Exchange is down.. oh and yeah, everything else on the internet is also...

                    nah - instead I'm going to say - hey our connection to the internet is down. Anything we access through online services is inaccessible because of that.

                    Exactly. In a case like that you would know that you have no reason to suspect that Exchange is down. You can also hop on your phone and determine, almost certainly, that it is up.

                    But why does this matter? No one is blaming Exchange for being down in this case. Can you restate the question you think I'm asking?

                    In most cases where people state the risk of Exchange being down, it's in a position where "some people can still access it" and we are not clear where the momentary outage is.

                    DashrenderD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • DashrenderD
                      Dashrender @scottalanmiller
                      last edited by

                      @scottalanmiller said:

                      In most cases where people state the risk of Exchange being down, it's in a position where "some people can still access it" and we are not clear where the momentary outage is.

                      aww OK.

                      Well from what I've seen around here, if MS is having an outage in O365, it normally affects an entire small company (large businesses due to large geo-diversity might have some parts be up while others are down), not just a few users.

                      scottalanmillerS 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • scottalanmillerS
                        scottalanmiller @Dashrender
                        last edited by

                        @Dashrender said:

                        @scottalanmiller said:

                        In most cases where people state the risk of Exchange being down, it's in a position where "some people can still access it" and we are not clear where the momentary outage is.

                        aww OK.

                        Well from what I've seen around here, if MS is having an outage in O365, it normally affects an entire small company (large businesses due to large geo-diversity might have some parts be up while others are down), not just a few users.

                        Oh yes, typically it is large. But it can be hard to tell. Outages can be account, datacenter, region, ISP, total, etc. Total has never, TTBOMK, happened. Lots of outages have happened that are MS' fault. But determining when it is can get to be a little complicated.

                        DashrenderD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • DashrenderD
                          Dashrender @scottalanmiller
                          last edited by

                          @scottalanmiller said:

                          @Dashrender said:

                          @scottalanmiller said:

                          In most cases where people state the risk of Exchange being down, it's in a position where "some people can still access it" and we are not clear where the momentary outage is.

                          aww OK.

                          Well from what I've seen around here, if MS is having an outage in O365, it normally affects an entire small company (large businesses due to large geo-diversity might have some parts be up while others are down), not just a few users.

                          Oh yes, typically it is large. But it can be hard to tell. Outages can be account, datacenter, region, ISP, total, etc. Total has never, TTBOMK, happened. Lots of outages have happened that are MS' fault. But determining when it is can get to be a little complicated.

                          But those outages are all Exchange outages because from the outside, we have no idea what caused the outage - unless there are reports telling us (there might be, I've never looked) what happened.

                          scottalanmillerS 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • scottalanmillerS
                            scottalanmiller @Dashrender
                            last edited by

                            @Dashrender said:

                            @scottalanmiller said:

                            @Dashrender said:

                            @scottalanmiller said:

                            In most cases where people state the risk of Exchange being down, it's in a position where "some people can still access it" and we are not clear where the momentary outage is.

                            aww OK.

                            Well from what I've seen around here, if MS is having an outage in O365, it normally affects an entire small company (large businesses due to large geo-diversity might have some parts be up while others are down), not just a few users.

                            Oh yes, typically it is large. But it can be hard to tell. Outages can be account, datacenter, region, ISP, total, etc. Total has never, TTBOMK, happened. Lots of outages have happened that are MS' fault. But determining when it is can get to be a little complicated.

                            But those outages are all Exchange outages because from the outside, we have no idea what caused the outage - unless there are reports telling us (there might be, I've never looked) what happened.

                            I agree. But I've been yelled at for calling some of them outages here on the community before, you see.

                            DashrenderD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • DashrenderD
                              Dashrender @scottalanmiller
                              last edited by

                              @scottalanmiller said:

                              @Dashrender said:

                              @scottalanmiller said:

                              @Dashrender said:

                              @scottalanmiller said:

                              In most cases where people state the risk of Exchange being down, it's in a position where "some people can still access it" and we are not clear where the momentary outage is.

                              aww OK.

                              Well from what I've seen around here, if MS is having an outage in O365, it normally affects an entire small company (large businesses due to large geo-diversity might have some parts be up while others are down), not just a few users.

                              Oh yes, typically it is large. But it can be hard to tell. Outages can be account, datacenter, region, ISP, total, etc. Total has never, TTBOMK, happened. Lots of outages have happened that are MS' fault. But determining when it is can get to be a little complicated.

                              But those outages are all Exchange outages because from the outside, we have no idea what caused the outage - unless there are reports telling us (there might be, I've never looked) what happened.

                              I agree. But I've been yelled at for calling some of them outages here on the community before, you see.

                              Really? I'd ask by whom, but that's not important -

                              Ohh.. they were saying, we'll I'm not down.. so you're just crazy Scott. gotcha.

                              yeah I'm on your side here.
                              The really tricky part comes when it's just a single user - is it an outage if a single user can't access, but everyone else can? I'd say no.

                              scottalanmillerS 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                              • scottalanmillerS
                                scottalanmiller @Dashrender
                                last edited by

                                @Dashrender said:

                                @scottalanmiller said:

                                @Dashrender said:

                                @scottalanmiller said:

                                @Dashrender said:

                                @scottalanmiller said:

                                In most cases where people state the risk of Exchange being down, it's in a position where "some people can still access it" and we are not clear where the momentary outage is.

                                aww OK.

                                Well from what I've seen around here, if MS is having an outage in O365, it normally affects an entire small company (large businesses due to large geo-diversity might have some parts be up while others are down), not just a few users.

                                Oh yes, typically it is large. But it can be hard to tell. Outages can be account, datacenter, region, ISP, total, etc. Total has never, TTBOMK, happened. Lots of outages have happened that are MS' fault. But determining when it is can get to be a little complicated.

                                But those outages are all Exchange outages because from the outside, we have no idea what caused the outage - unless there are reports telling us (there might be, I've never looked) what happened.

                                I agree. But I've been yelled at for calling some of them outages here on the community before, you see.

                                Really? I'd ask by whom, but that's not important -

                                Ohh.. they were saying, we'll I'm not down.. so you're just crazy Scott. gotcha.

                                yeah I'm on your side here.
                                The really tricky part comes when it's just a single user - is it an outage if a single user can't access, but everyone else can? I'd say no.

                                Yeah, it was that the outage, while being from the provider and no means of working around and a REAL outage with services 100% gone, that because it was isolated by account that I couldn't say that they had an outage. But the services were gone and they could not even bring them back themselves.

                                It wasn't a single user, not even a single company, but a single class of companies.

                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                • JaredBuschJ
                                  JaredBusch
                                  last edited by JaredBusch

                                  @Dashrender by me of course.

                                  Because the way it was phrased was click baity and inferring more than it was.

                                  I never said it wasn't an outage. I only said it wasn't an Exchange outage. it was an account outage. Semantics. But important to be clear on exactly where the outage occurred.

                                  Something like that can easily be called an Exchange outage initially. but once things are known to be an account outage, then it needs specified.

                                  On the other hand I have also argued with vendors that say they do not have an outage because their upstream provider has an outage. To me the user, it is my vendor's outage. I am not a client of the upstream provider.

                                  This is different because it is unrelated to my account in any way. Unlike the instance @scottalanmiller was referring to.

                                  Also, I want my cake and will eat it too.

                                  scottalanmillerS 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • scottalanmillerS
                                    scottalanmiller @JaredBusch
                                    last edited by

                                    @JaredBusch said:

                                    @Dashrender by me of course.

                                    Because the way it was phrased was click baity and inferring more than it was.

                                    I never said it wasn't an outage. I only said it wasn't an Exchange outage. it was an account outage. Semantics. But important to be clear on exactly where the outage occurred.

                                    Something like that can easily be called an Exchange outage initially. but once things are known to be an account outage, then it needs specified.

                                    On the other hand I have also argued with vendors that say they do not have an outage because their upstream provider has an outage. To me the user, it is my vendor's outage. I am not a client of the upstream provider.

                                    This is different because it is unrelated to my account in any way. Unlike the instance @scottalanmiller was referring to.

                                    Also, I want my cake and will eat it too.

                                    I mostly agree here, but the issue, to us, was that while there was an account outage, that triggered an account-localized Exchange and Azure outage. Exchange and Azure services were unavailable to a group of customers (we know of several others affected too, not just our account). So by any normal reasoning yes, there was an account outage, but that's a little like the vendor saying that their ISP failed. To us, as a customer, Exchange and Azure had failed and it something technical on the vendor's side (account is not technical, that they could not fix the account was technical) that they took days in one instance to fix and are still on months trying to fix in the other.

                                    If we use the criteria of "are the services no longer available to the customer(s)" then the answer was yes. The cause was "technical glitches in the account management system" rather than "vendor's ISP failed" , but that's after the point that Exchange and Azure had outages. The end result was Exchange and Azure being down to customer(s).

                                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                    • JaredBuschJ
                                      JaredBusch
                                      last edited by

                                      I had a conversation on Wednesday even with someone that just was so crazy it locked up my mind and I could not create a coherent argument. The beer count prior to this conversation also had something to do with it I am sure.

                                      I was out drinking with an old high school buddy that runs a local PC shop in my hometown. He does not do commercial work in general. Basically he spends all day everyday removing viruses and recovering basic stuff for home users. Great guy, knows the limits of what he wants to learn and do, etc.

                                      Anyway, some local guy that is recently into doing some basic consulting work sees us (my friend mostly) and comes and joins us. Basic conversation on various IT stuff ensues, then this guy suddenly starts digging into my buddy wondering if he has any KVM experience (he does not) and if he was wanting to maybe get in on a deal with him to put a rack in his office and set up severs to for people.

                                      A little questioning from me and he is like MS sucks. VMWare is crap and no way would I use Citrix. All that stuff is too expensive. I setup everything myself in Linux and use KVM.

                                      I just locked up... I mean WTF and you have actual clients? Apparently he does. Currently all hosted out of his house. I am fairly certain that violates the ToS on his internet service.

                                      He seriously had no answer for why he was not using something with any kind of support. I mean, I have nothing against KVM, but damn if I am gong to pay for my shit to be someplace, I want it someplace with something behind it.

                                      I told the guy, if you want KVM, buy Scale gear. If you want free, use XenServer or Hyper-V in that order. Either way do something that approaches some kind of industry standard that you can get supported.

                                      😑

                                      DashrenderD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 4
                                      • DashrenderD
                                        Dashrender @JaredBusch
                                        last edited by

                                        @JaredBusch said:

                                        I had a conversation on Wednesday even with someone that just was so crazy it locked up my mind and I could not create a coherent argument. The beer count prior to this conversation also had something to do with it I am sure.

                                        I was out drinking with an old high school buddy that runs a local PC shop in my hometown. He does not do commercial work in general. Basically he spends all day everyday removing viruses and recovering basic stuff for home users. Great guy, knows the limits of what he wants to learn and do, etc.

                                        Anyway, some local guy that is recently into doing some basic consulting work sees us (my friend mostly) and comes and joins us. Basic conversation on various IT stuff ensues, then this guy suddenly starts digging into my buddy wondering if he has any KVM experience (he does not) and if he was wanting to maybe get in on a deal with him to put a rack in his office and set up severs to for people.

                                        A little questioning from me and he is like MS sucks. VMWare is crap and no way would I use Citrix. All that stuff is too expensive. I setup everything myself in Linux and use KVM.

                                        I just locked up... I mean WTF and you have actual clients? Apparently he does. Currently all hosted out of his house. I am fairly certain that violates the ToS on his internet service.

                                        He seriously had no answer for why he was not using something with any kind of support. I mean, I have nothing against KVM, but damn if I am gong to pay for my shit to be someplace, I want it someplace with something behind it.

                                        I told the guy, if you want KVM, buy Scale gear. If you want free, use XenServer or Hyper-V in that order. Either way do something that approaches some kind of industry standard that you can get supported.

                                        😑

                                        LOL - that situation is extremely common. Most people never ask, or care about the back end until it's to late.

                                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                        • DustinB3403D
                                          DustinB3403
                                          last edited by DustinB3403

                                          So even after we've told the OP here, that by allowing Modify access to the Shared Desktop is bad practice, he ignores our advice and does it anyways....

                                          He's not yet burned, but likely will be in the future....

                                          The Shared Desktop on Windows is designed to be controlled by the System Administrator, not every user to delete (and add) what they want / don't want on their desktops.

                                          If a few users complain about a "messy" desktop, go and delete the shared icons for them, rather then circumventing the system and granting everyone access to modify what is there...

                                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                          • scottalanmillerS
                                            scottalanmiller
                                            last edited by

                                            Not exactly a best practice, but a general rule is that if you have a good, enterprise hardware solution you don't replace it with software RAID without a really, really good reason (this started to become a thing because of the Cult of ZFS and FreeNAS community issues a few years ago.)

                                            This guy didn't research how the most standard controller on the market works, made a ridiculous assumption that "all" businesses lack super basic functionality and lept to crazy conclusions resulting in him throwing away a $600 controller, buying a $200 FakeRAID device, using it like a $100 SAS controller and resulting in him being unable to read performance results from the resulting system and losing big features like blind swap. All around a misconception that if he had asked a question about, people would have corrected him instantly. Instead he decided that HP was crazy and that their and Adaptec's super expensive, top end controllers did not work and that the entire IT world was crazy and tried to reinvent the wheel.

                                            http://community.spiceworks.com/topic/1386446-nas-with-s-ata-drives-faster-than-hp-server-with-enterprise-sas-15k-drives

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