What does your desk look like?
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@creayt said:
Ummmm, what? Better organization of code? What does that sentence mean to you?
Easier, rather, it puts you in a position to more easily organise things, because things are easier to follow and find. Proper organisation of larger projects is highly important, especially when you consider things like separation of concerns and so forth. Text editors like Sublime or Notepad++ don't really help with that at all.
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@tonyshowoff said:
I definitely don't consider it cutting edge at all, and the syntax to be just god awful. I'd say that node.js is cutting edge and it also does support WebSocket too (naturally). Plus WebSocket libraries are available with most major languages too, just because they're automatically included with CF (assuming) doesn't make it superior.
The fact that Adobe is involved with ColdFusion has been a negative strike against it.
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@tonyshowoff said:
@creayt I don't disagree that it's faster to write, but from a syntax perspective the fact it doesn't stand out from HTML I don't consider an advantage. I also don't consider it an advantage that basically almost forces one into a position of not separating concerns. You can write more CF, but will it be better, faster, and more platform independent than my PHP? (Possibly faster than Ruby, depending on various things) Certainly not, and I'm also locked into Adobe's licensing schema as well, and I don't like that. In all though the syntax issue is a matter of preference, obviously, but I think my other concerns are founded.
Guessing you aren't familiar w/ cfScript, which is at the heart of ColdFusion. Though the tag language is appropriate and unparalleledly powerful for dynamic HTML generation and integration, the script equivalent is equally powerful and feature compatible.
So you can do
<loop query="q"> <!--- Dynamic html here ---> </loop>to exploit the fluid, powerful integration with HTML.
But you can also do
function myUtil( arg1, arg2 ){ return z; }It's not that dissimilar to Javascript, and can do everything PHP or Ruby does, with a syntax that lets people familiar w/ JS do powerful back end stuff with extraordinarily good performance out of the box. Not gonna lie, I love ColdFusion.
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@tonyshowoff Also, as far as licensing, I'm guessing you haven't heard of Railo. It's the free, open-source ColdFusion.
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@creayt Oh, no I wasn't, cfScript is vastly better. Admittedly my experience with CF is about 8 or so years out of date, but due to licensing, availability, and other issues I never consider it really. Full disclosure, I've always hated XML as well, and we use JSON or BSON for all of our transport/storage stuff in house where possible over XML. You may love ColdFusion, but I certainly do not, and I think that's fine.
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And CF runs on top of Java now too
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@tonyshowoff said:
@scottalanmiller said:
And CF runs on top of Java now too
So does Ruby
Ruby does so optionally, CF is implemented solely that way it would appear.
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I actually like Java on the server side. It's just Adobe on Java, it sounds bad.
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I've not dealt with CF since 2001 when IBM though that ColdFusion was a good idea alongside OS/2 and Token Ring networking.
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@scottalanmiller Me too, client side Java sucks. The first version of AOL AIM was coded in Java... Swing is so terrible.
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Yeah, client side Java was a horrible idea from the beginning. But server side is actually excellent. Especially when you add Scala, Clojure or the like.
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@scottalanmiller said:
It's just Adobe sounds bad.
FTFY. Sadly. And I even own a lot of Adobe software, It's a necessary evil.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Yeah, client side Java was a horrible idea from the beginning. But server side is actually excellent. Especially when you add Scala, Clojure or the like.
Lazy programers like it since it's not native. No porting needed. I hate it. It's talk in colleges as one of the best languages a lot. That it's better than VB or C++
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@tonyshowoff said:
@creayt Oh, no I wasn't, cfScript is vastly better. Admittedly my experience with CF is about 8 or so years out of date, but due to licensing, availability, and other issues I never consider it really. Full disclosure, I've always hated XML as well, and we use JSON or BSON for all of our transport/storage stuff in house where possible over XML. You may love ColdFusion, but I certainly do not, and I think that's fine.
It's not vastly better. That's like saying that an airplane is "vastly better" than a helicopter. They're two different beasts with different purposes, they each do certain things extremely well. I hate XML too. Good thing ColdFusion has literally nothing at all to do with XML except that it's able to parse, generate, and work with it extremely easily, the same way it can with JSON, and a zillion other things.
I guarantee you that if you and I sat down and created an identical product, and you saw that ColdFusion let me do it in about a third of the time it took you, and in a way that's actually more fun and flexible, you might love it too haha. I started out with PHP, which got me really excited about web development, and I still write PHP from time to time, helped my GF construct some objects from a MySQL query and serialize them to JSON in PHP the other day ( she was reimagining an example from a book she was reading ). When we were done we wrote the same code in ColdFusion, and it was something like 75% fewer lines of code. PHP has some strengths, but I've never met a PHP developer who could offer much more than "a lot of companies use it and there are a lot of things already written in PHP" as a competitive advantage. As far as the syntax, I mean Jesus. If you want to talk terrible syntax, PHP wins that contest by a mile.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Ruby does so optionally, CF is implemented solely that way it would appear.
Correct. CF compiles into Java and takes advantage of a ton of the J2EE advancements. The last few versions ship atop Tomcat. And if you like inefficiency, you can even drop into Java within ColdFusion. The point of ColdFusion is productivity. You can do more with less code, less time, and less people. It turns any good developer into a one-man army. It's worth every penny, and there's a reason it can afford to thrive and not be free like PHP, Ruby, and many other decent options.
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@scottalanmiller said:
I actually like Java on the server side. It's just Adobe on Java, it sounds bad.
Agreed. But Adobe didn't create it. They just acquired it when they bought Macromedia, along with a handful of other wares, like Dreamweaver. Someone buying something doesn't make it bad. I assure you it's still extremely good at what it does.
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@thecreativeone91 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Yeah, client side Java was a horrible idea from the beginning. But server side is actually excellent. Especially when you add Scala, Clojure or the like.
Lazy programers like it since it's not native. No porting needed. I hate it. It's talk in colleges as one of the best languages a lot. That it's better than VB or C++
Java? It's IS a lot better than VB. That's easy. C++ and Java rarely play in the same space. Java isn't for the lazy, it's one of the most advanced platforms out there. Lots of effort but crazy power. Java is taught because it remains the leading language for enterprise development. And it is powerful. There is a reason why Java is used heavily for the high demand trading applications and other super fast stuff.
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@tonyshowoff said:
@scottalanmiller Me too, client side Java sucks. The first version of AOL AIM was coded in Java... Swing is so terrible.
Totally agree with you here. Any interface period w/ Java is just a nightmare
. It's amazing as a serverware platform though, which is why 10,000 things all compile to Java now. -
@creayt said:
@tonyshowoff said:
@creayt Oh, no I wasn't, cfScript is vastly better. Admittedly my experience with CF is about 8 or so years out of date, but due to licensing, availability, and other issues I never consider it really. Full disclosure, I've always hated XML as well, and we use JSON or BSON for all of our transport/storage stuff in house where possible over XML. You may love ColdFusion, but I certainly do not, and I think that's fine.
It's not vastly better. That's like saying that an airplane is "vastly better" than a helicopter. They're two different beasts with different purposes, they each do certain things extremely well. I hate XML too. Good thing ColdFusion has literally nothing at all to do with XML except that it's able to parse, generate, and work with it extremely easily, the same way it can with JSON, and a zillion other things.
I guarantee you that if you and I sat down and created an identical product, and you saw that ColdFusion let me do it in about a third of the time it took you, and in a way that's actually more fun and flexible, you might love it too haha. I started out with PHP, which got me really excited about web development, and I still write PHP from time to time, helped my GF construct some objects from a MySQL query and serialize them to JSON in PHP the other day ( she was reimagining an example from a book she was reading ). When we were done we wrote the same code in ColdFusion, and it was something like 75% fewer lines of code. PHP has some strengths, but I've never met a PHP developer who could offer much more than "a lot of companies use it and there are a lot of things already written in PHP" as a competitive advantage. As far as the syntax, I mean Jesus. If you want to talk terrible syntax, PHP wins that contest by a mile.
Yeah, but that's the same conversation that the Python, Ruby, Node.js, Scala, Clojure, etc. people have about PHP. PHP is okay, but all of them talk about how much faster the development is in anything but PHP.
