Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon
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Of course for most grandparents, the far and away best answer is ChromeOS. It's the easiest and safest and cheapest. Only power users need consider anything more (or gamers, of course.)
For that that need more, Linux Mint is currently my go to choice. Far easier than Ubuntu. But if you are only willing to consider the worst of Linux, then even Ubuntu shows how far better most Linux systems are for casual users than Windows or Mac OSX. Everything "just works". And no hidden costs, no pushy updates, no third party tools needed, no "go buy this thing", almost no malware attacks, no "I got a phone call from Windows tech support and they need my passwords."
Easy, solid, free.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
BTW I do have LOTS of older clients that I still support that are home users. A lot of them are on OSX. Its a piece of cake and they love it. They love the fun photo apps. The OS easily updates itself.
I'm not saying it is hard, it's just hard and expensive by comparison.
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So you seem to think that using a Linux desktop is hard. What have you tried to do that wasn't super simple? I can't think of any end user task that isn't as easy or, usually, far easier.
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But seriously, only real power users need more than a Chromebook. Heck, I only need a Chromebook. One of my developers moved to a Chromebook today. I'm on a Chromebook right now.
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@scottalanmiller If you think Ubuntu is easier than OSX.....One tiny example - installing my untended ScreenConnect* software on Ubuntu vs OSX/Windows.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
@scottalanmiller If you think Ubuntu is easier than OSX.....One tiny example - installing my untended ScreenConnect* software on Ubuntu vs OSX/Windows.
Your grandfather installs ScreenConnect? I think you are dealing with IT workers, not grandparents here.
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Also, when my grandmothers machine running Mint has issues - where can she take it to get it fixed? Lots of my clients just walk into any Mac store and walk out with their issue resolved. I'm sorry...but to argue that Linux has better usability than OSX is crazy to me.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
@scottalanmiller If you think Ubuntu is easier than OSX.....One tiny example - installing my untended ScreenConnect* software on Ubuntu vs OSX/Windows.
Actually this is an AWESOME example. For Windows or OSX you need ScreenConnect. Why do you even want that with Linux? What purpose is that going to serve? I run a lot of Linux systems, have never wanted that. Have no need for it. Only need it when supporting things like Windows or Mac OSX. The lack of need for it is actually a perfect example of where Windows needs third party tools, often expensive and complex ones, and still isn't as easy to support and maintain as my Korora desktop.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
Also, when my grandmothers machine running Mint has issues - where can she take it to get it fixed?
So many places. THis is one of the weirdest arguments. Just call any company that supports Linux, there are so many people anxious for new customers. Just call one. Need a number, I'll get him one. In fact, again, I'd call this a win because there aren't the plethora of "corner stores" doing fake, unskilled desktop bench support preying on people who didn't know where to take their machines.
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@scottalanmiller So you're saying you don't want the ability to remotely help your grandparents when they can't figure something out? You would rather try and walk them through the terminal commands?
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
I'm sorry...but to argue that Linux has better usability than OSX is crazy to me.
And vice versa. How do you find OSX to even be competitive? Have you used both extensively as your sole machine to compare?
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
@scottalanmiller So you're saying you don't want the ability to remotely help your grandparents when they can't figure something out? You would rather try and walk them through the terminal commands?
Why is THAT your alternative? You are jumping to emotional reactions instead of asking how something would be done.
Why would someone need terminal commands? Is that what you would do on Mac? Don't carry your complications from Windows or Mac onto Linux. Of course it seemed hard if you believe it has all of the problems you've had in the past. Try to see past the hard to support world of Mac or Windows, your bias from their problems makes you assume that Linux has them too. It has some, sure, but not the ones you are imagining.
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@scottalanmiller I have a Mac mini running Mac OS, an Ubuntu desktop I use for running ddrescue for data recovery, and my Windows laptop right next to me. I use them all. For the completely computer illiterate my favorite OS is hands down OSX right now.
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You assume because I don't want unattended ScreenConnect that I can't assist. But I can, shared desktop assistance is built in. But I've never needed it. System is so easy. But it's totally reasonable to need that from time to time, it's just not common, in my experience. You just don't have the support needs that Windows and Mac do. Which is why they are popular, they cost more to support and the support is more visible. So everyone pushes them because they generate so many more support calls.
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I should add - I've recommended Chrome OS to lots of people who can live entirely in Google's cloud.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
@scottalanmiller I have a Mac mini running Mac OS, an Ubuntu desktop I use for running ddrescue for data recovery, and my Windows laptop right next to me. I use them all. For the completely computer illiterate my favorite OS is hands down OSX right now.
So none exclusively? You've never taken a year and switched to each to really experience being forced to work only from one?
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
I should add - I've recommended Chrome OS to lots of people who can live entirely in Google's cloud.
Why do you tie it to Google's cloud? I don't use that, other than for logging in. I have no need for it on my Chromebook.
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I didn't mean that to sound like you should NOT use Google's cloud options, just meant that using a Chromebook does not imply anything like that.
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One thing I would have to ask is... why do you keep comparing to Ubuntu? Look at easy to use Linux rather than Ubuntu. Ubuntu, I've said this a lot, is so bad that I truly believe that it was created to make a harder than necessary to use Linux desktop and surround it with marketing that told people that it was easy to use so that people could say "but Linux is hard." In 17.04 it's pretty easy, they've fixed a lot of things and it has some nice features and the driver support is phenomenal and 18.04 when Unity completely goes away should be a huge step further into the right direction.
But for real end user friendliness, distros like Mint, Korora, Gecko, Solus, Zorin and Elementary are really build for that. Six solid choices, depending on the target audience and what support you want to provide. All of them are gorgeous, all of them give a "Windows 7"-like feel that is totally native for people coming from older Windows, but far cleaner and easier. Except Elementary which gives you a Mac feel.
All have powerful package management that makes getting and maintaining software so easy that nothing on Windows or Mac can compete.
All offer transparent remote shared desktop management built in, no additional components needed.
All of them can be managed remotely without interrupting the end users, both graphical (don't do that) and through the command line. All can be trivially managed via state machines as well.
All of them are nearly totally protected from malware (nothing is perfect and this will change over time). None of them need or have use for third party anti-virus. All will patch not only themselves but all of their included software. All have ways for third party non-included software to be patched automatically as well, optionally.
These systems truly make the end user experience easier, not just from a "I know where the buttons are" kind of way, although they do do that. But also from a "I don't have to worry about so many things, I don't have to know as much, I don't have to be an expert, I don't need to call someone to fix things and I don't have to acquire extra tools to make it work" way.
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One of the really great things with, say, Mint is just how much is included. My dad (obviously retired) is moving from Windows to Linux (probably Korora because we all use it) with his next laptop purchase. Things like not needing to look for, acquire, install or update an office suite is perfect for him. That one is included and totally maintained by the system gives him more than he could ever need.
He gets simplified printing and scanning, for free.
He wants to do video editing and instead of constantly researching, buying, installing and updating a third party system he'll have a built in one that is more powerful and self maintaining. Lowering cost and easing management.
We will manage the system for him, I'm sure. So things like installing software will be even simpler since we need only maintain a list of what software should be there. State machines for software lists are so easy on most Linux systems. You can do them on Windows but you have to build out all this complexity to make it work.
