Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon



  • Looking at potentially getting a new laptop. Looking at the T470s & X1 Carbon. Right now I utilize an X230 w/docking station.

    I'm leaning more towards the T470s because of the integrated ethernet. At the same time as time goes on we'll see ethernet disappear from more and more notebooks and at least the X1 Carbon has an actual ethernet adapter (doesn't use USB to ethernet) and it has much better battery life.

    The other major question is the dock - T470s supports the traditional docking solutions, while the X1 only supports USB C docks - will the USB C dock charge the laptop as well as a traditional dock? I've seen reports that some people with other laptop models w/USB C docks are having charging issues.

    Thoughts?



  • Neither? Lenovo isn't a company that should be trusted. Look at a different vendor.



  • @coliver said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:

    Neither? Lenovo isn't a company that should be trusted. Look at a different vendor.

    But who else makes a laptop as light as the Carbon or even the T470's. I can't think of any off hand.

    I get why people continually look at Lenovo as the go to brand for business laptops.



  • @DustinB3403 said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:

    @coliver said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:

    Neither? Lenovo isn't a company that should be trusted. Look at a different vendor.

    But who else makes a laptop as light as the Carbon or even the T470's. I can't think of any off hand.

    I get why people continually look at Lenovo as the go to brand for business laptops.

    Dell has an XPS that is only slightly heavier. The Surface Book I think is around that as well. But you're right they are light... but not sure if the cost outweighs the benefits.


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    @DustinB3403 said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:

    @coliver said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:

    Neither? Lenovo isn't a company that should be trusted. Look at a different vendor.

    But who else makes a laptop as light as the Carbon or even the T470's. I can't think of any off hand.

    I get why people continually look at Lenovo as the go to brand for business laptops.

    We've got one and I don't share your confidence. Terrible quality. Have to replace hardware out of the box for it to work. Even doing that it was unstable without Windows (Linux fixed a lot of the instabilities - removed all Lenovo drivers completely .). Build quality is okay, but that's it. No redeeming qualities.


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    I use Ethernet, but does anyone else? Is that really a selling point for you? My guess is that you'd regret that as a deciding factor.


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    Although it's Lenovo, so the wifi is possibly a weak point. So the Ethernet might matter where it would not fit another vendor.



  • @scottalanmiller You have a 5th generation carbon? That's the latest and has received the best praise/positive reviews - pretty much from everyone.

    It's extremely light, has top of class battery life (15+ hours), one of the best keyboards, great connection options - full size HDMI, 2 Thunderbolt 3 ports. What parts did you have to replace out of the box?



  • @DustinB3403 Exactly. I've only had Lenovo laptops the last few years. Besides that maybe I would look at Dell's lattitude lineup. In fact I was cross shopping these two options against the Lattitude 7480. The problem with the 7480 is that unlike the T470s it doesn't have a dock connector, and it's only got 2 X PCI express lanes going to its m.2 SSD vs 4 for both the T470s & X1 Carbon.


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    @frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:

    @DustinB3403 Exactly. I've only had Lenovo laptops the last few years. Besides that maybe I would look at Dell's lattitude lineup. In fact I was cross shopping these two options against the Lattitude 7480. The problem with the 7480 is that unlike the T470s it doesn't have a dock connector, and it's only got 2 X PCI express lanes going to its m.2 SSD vs 4 for both the T470s & X1 Carbon.

    I moved to Asus. Vast improvement. We bought three this past year at home, planning for another.



  • @coliver I've deployed 2 different SurfaceBooks (not a lot I'll grant you) and both of them had issues. One had to be sent back to Microsoft as the screen release system didn't work, and the other one would just periodically lock up ( fixed through updates eventually).

    The XPS is a good machine though. Besides not having a dock connection, the main downside as I see it - it doesn't have a trackpoint keyboard...which is what I've used for the last 10 years.


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    @frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:

    @scottalanmiller You have a 5th generation carbon? That's the latest and has received the best praise/positive reviews - pretty much from everyone.

    Here is a problem with reviews.... the majority of the people that I'd trust writing a review won't look at a Lenovo, period. So any reviews of one are filtered by people who are either not up to date or don't care about factors that we generally care about. This makes reviews very, very skewed. Sure there are fewer reviewers, but the reviews that get published now are almost totally filtered to only be fanboys. Reviews are nearly worthless at the best of times (see our discussions on Consumer Reports and Gartner) but with a product like Lenovo, they are dramatically worse.

    That said, no, the issues we've had were a little older. There is no vendor I would use less than Lenovo. Literally. Worst build, worst support, worst customer service. Every aspect of dealing with them has been insanely bad. Both as a vendor and their product have been terrible.


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    @frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:

    @coliver I've deployed 2 different SurfaceBooks (not a lot I'll grant you) and both of them had issues.

    Avoid any product with Surface in the name. Microsoft isn't doing the illegal and unethical things that Lenovo does, but their stuff is shoddy to say the least. We actually have to upcharge clients who demand to use them because they are so much more expensive to support than quality gear.

    I'd take a Surface before a Lenovo, but I'd never buy one with my own money.


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    There are loads of good vendors out there, varying a little depending on the market. But Dell, Asus, Acer, Samsung, HP, Fujitsu, Toshiba might still be around, etc.



  • @scottalanmiller I'll never buy another Asus. To give you an idea how about their support is - my wife bought a Asus laptop a few years back with Windows 8. When 8.1 came out her trackpad stopped scrolling. Asus never released an update to fix it. That's crazy to me. We're not talking about going from Windows 7 to windows 10...windows 8 to 8.1.

    eople all over the internet were complaining and it was at least a year or two until someone discovered a driver for another laptop model would work on the Asus laptops.


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    @frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:

    It's extremely light, has top of class battery life (15+ hours), one of the best keyboards, great connection options - full size HDMI, 2 Thunderbolt 3 ports. What parts did you have to replace out of the box?

    We have one of the business class Yogas. Had to replace the wifi. And we aren't the only ones in the community that had to do that. And the OS. Even with the wifi replaced, Windows 10 was flaky on it. Something about the drivers even coming signed from MS, they weren't hijacked like the Lenovo ones, but they weren't stable. Korora 25 on the same hardware is a totally different experience. GPU is stable now, network stack is stable.


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    @frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:

    We're not talking about going from Windows 7 to windows 10...windows 8 to 8.1.

    That's a change in OS version. So it is effectively the same as 7 to 10, just fewer steps. But all it takes is being the step between supported and not supported. That was an unreasonable expectation for you to make of Asus that they would just have support for a newer OS unless you checked with them before updating and they said that they were going to support it then didn't. 8 to 8.1 was a full OS update, just like 7 to 8 or 8.1 to 10.


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    @frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:

    eople all over the internet were complaining ...

    But not complaining about something that Asus did wrong. Complaining that they had not verified compatibility before switching OSes, right?



  • @scottalanmiller Oh come on man! Dell/Lenovo would never do that to people. I supported LOTS of clients in their move to windows 8 to 8.1 and while some manufacturers took a month or two to get updated drivers to fix certain things...Asus was the only company to drop the ball. While windows 8.1 was a larger update...it was not a entirely different OS.
    If you were a general consumer that just bought a computer, and a few months later Microsoft released and update that was highly recommended from a usability/security standpoint you would want/need to install it. It's not crazy to expect the manufacturer to release a driver update for something especially if it's within the warranty period.



  • @scottalanmiller I would agree that a lot of sites can be skewed or very uniformed, but take a look at this:

    https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-X1-Carbon-2017-Core-i7-Full-HD-Laptop-Review.207160.0.html

    I would challenge you to find a site that takes a deeper look at laptops than this review. They look at everything - I even know that the panel inside the X1 Carbon doesn't utilize PWM to dim the screen - which is nice.


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    @frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:

    While windows 8.1 was a larger update...it was not a entirely different OS.

    Yes, it was. Under the hood it was identical to the 7 ->8 and 8.1 -> 10 moves. It was a standard jump in NT Kernel levels, identical to every OS move and update since the beginning of the NT system. There was nothing special about it, it was not "less" of any update in any way, other than perhaps marketing. It got very little push.

    But in every way, it was a full update.


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    @frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:

    If you were a general consumer that just bought a computer, and a few months later Microsoft released and update that was highly recommended from a usability/security standpoint you would want/need to install it.

    Sure, but that is not at all what happened. 8.1 was not a patch to 8. It was the following version. Just as 8 was not a patch to 7. It's recommended because it's the next product that they want you to buy, not because it was how you got your security fixes to 8.


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    @frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:

    It's not crazy to expect the manufacturer to release a driver update for something especially if it's within the warranty period.

    Honestly, yes it is. It's not crazy to want the next OS version to be supported, it's not crazy to expect that there is a good chance that it will be, it's not crazy to ask about it or check into it. But the way that you are thinking about it, yes, it is crazy. It's totally unreasonable to react to Asus deciding that the cost of supporting a new OS that release likely after the laptop was retired when probably less than .1% of their audience was going to run out and buy a new OS for an "old" laptop in the way that you have.

    I understand that you are disappointed that you wanted to run 8.1 and Asus didn't provide the drives for that. But there is zero blame on Asus there, they did nothing wrong as you describe it and the expectation that they "have to" support new OSes on old hardware is unreasonable. Especially if this wasn't a business class device, but maybe it was.


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    @frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:

    @scottalanmiller I would agree that a lot of sites can be skewed or very uniformed, but take a look at this:

    https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-X1-Carbon-2017-Core-i7-Full-HD-Laptop-Review.207160.0.html

    I would challenge you to find a site that takes a deeper look at laptops than this review. They look at everything - I even know that the panel inside the X1 Carbon doesn't utilize PWM to dim the screen - which is nice.

    How much they look at doesn't tell us if their opinions on it are not skewed. Gartner looks at everything, but is well known to be paid marketing. I'm not saying that this site is, I'm just saying that knowing when a review site is or is not selling out is essentially impossible to know from the outside. Some are obvious if you pay attention, Gartner clearly leaves out products that would be obviously better or competitive with ones that they want to promote or make new product matrices based on the strengths of what they are paid to sell and once in a while they sprinkle in neutral reviews to make it more confusing. But everyone knows that Garnter sends out a bill for your ranking on those lists.


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    @frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:

    @scottalanmiller Lenovo would never do that to people.

    You seriously don't think Lenovo would do that? Lenovo that released the hijacked drivers, left users without working drivers even on the OS that shipped on the laptops, etc. Lenovo has done this not just far worse, but illegally. And repeatedly.



  • @scottalanmiller What about Windows 10? Everyone should probably disable Windows update. All of those major OS updates will probably break something, and even if it's within a year of purchase - the Manufacturer shouldn't expect to support the product.



  • @scottalanmiller I've personally have had an X61, X200, X220, X230 and I've usually been able to go from one windows version to the next with excellent driver support. The X220 wasn't windows 10 capable, but when you consider it's release date vs when windows 10 was available I can't blame them for that.


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    @frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:

    @scottalanmiller What about Windows 10? Everyone should probably disable Windows update. All of those major OS updates will probably break something, and even if it's within a year of purchase - the Manufacturer shouldn't expect to support the product.

    I don't follow. Windows 10 is current. Absolutely nothing like the conversation that we are having. You are still mixing patches and updates with new OS releases, I think.


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    @frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:

    @scottalanmiller I've personally have had an X61, X200, X220, X230 and I've usually been able to go from one windows version to the next with excellent driver support. The X220 wasn't windows 10 capable, but when you consider it's release date vs when windows 10 was available I can't blame them for that.

    Generally, yes. There is no doubt that most vendors will update the drivers within a certain about of time. I can't speak to way Asus felt that that model had no need for the next OS. Perhaps it was consumer, or end of life or there was a technology conflict that caused issues with the new version. It's totally reasonable to look for and find drivers for newer OSes that release after purchase. But it is not reasonable to simply expect that it will always happen. At least Asus properly supported the version that they sold and shipped, unlike my experiences and many others with Lenovo.


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    @frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:

    the Manufacturer shouldn't expect to support the product.

    You are confusing the concept of supporting what was sold with supporting doing something that was not part of the product specification. This would be similar to demanding that a manufacturer support a different OS entirely (not quite, but close.) If the vendor makes no claims to supporting Windows 8.1 or FreeBSD 11, you can't be upset if they really don't support those things.

    If an OS is going to be released anytime soon enough for this to be at all reasonable to think, it is also soon enough that the manufacturers will already have support before release or a support statement. So if you are talking about a laptop that was purchased a month before Windows 8.1 released, you should have had access to know if Asus had committed to supporting the OS you intended to run on the hardware or not.

    It's fine to buy it and take a risk and decide later if you are going to move to the newer OS or not depending on what is available. Or to try it and see if the old drivers work (if the OS move is small enough, this generally works, as this didn't, it implies that the OS update was far larger than you feel that it was.) But unless Asus lied about having 8.1 support available or coming, I don't see any ground for the complaints.


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