FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues
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@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
Now - I do have to admit... I don't know if HBO/Youtube, etc had to PAY to get the codec.. if they did - yeah.. that's wrong.. and destroys my whole side of things.. the codec has to be the same price for all those that use it.
The codec would also have to apply to ALL media types, all possible types. Everything that could possibly exist. Audio, text, video, downloads, you name it.
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@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
So we all want what “Net Neutrality” sounds like, but what’s in the actual law isn’t really that. I think that’s the short of it.
No, I want Net Neutrality, it sounds like everyone else wants exactly the opposite. Which is fine, but everyone needs to realize that a neutral Internet means you can never use marketing tricks to make unequal access sound appealing.
What you want too see from TMo instead of this 'free' space when you that codec, you want to see a lower bill, then you get to choose to spend that money buying bandwidth as you desire.. instead of seeing a higher bill ( but drastically less than the competition) that includes the "free" space... I think this is what you are saying.. and what you are calling a lack of NN.
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@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
So we all want what “Net Neutrality” sounds like, but what’s in the actual law isn’t really that. I think that’s the short of it.
No, I want Net Neutrality, it sounds like everyone else wants exactly the opposite. Which is fine, but everyone needs to realize that a neutral Internet means you can never use marketing tricks to make unequal access sound appealing.
What you want too see from TMo instead of this 'free' space when you that codec, you want to see a lower bill, then you get to choose to spend that money buying bandwidth as you desire.. instead of seeing a higher bill ( but drastically less than the competition) that includes the "free" space... I think this is what you are saying.. and what you are calling a lack of NN.
What I want is neutrality. I never, ever, ever, ever, ever want an ISP to have the right to ever, ever, ever prioritize (in speed, bandwidth or antyhing else) where my money goes. I want to pay for access to the Internet, all of the Internet equally, and not have some private company deciding that some data gets to me faster or some data costs more than other data. I don't want a filtered Internet, I want a neutral Internet.
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@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
Now - I do have to admit... I don't know if HBO/Youtube, etc had to PAY to get the codec.. if they did - yeah.. that's wrong.. and destroys my whole side of things.. the codec has to be the same price for all those that use it.
The codec would also have to apply to ALL media types, all possible types. Everything that could possibly exist. Audio, text, video, downloads, you name it.
fine.
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Imagine if your electric company said that powering Sony appliances gave you unlimited power, but if you powered Samsung, you'd have to pay? Instantly people would rave about the "free" power they now get... but of course, the power company could make a deal with Sony to raise their prices way higher than the power cost, and then pocket the difference. And if you didn't buy enough Sony devices, they'd fix that by raising the price of power until you did.
You, as the end user, would say "see how buying Sony saves me money" all while being manipulated by fake "free" costs and artificially raise prices for the vendors that don't pay off the power officials.
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@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
What I do see is one I don't get charged for, and one I do (yeah, I really do get charged because, like the mike thing.. the base bill could be even lower for just access, then we could pay for usage - and your absolutely right.. if it was that simple.. I would love that... but TMo is offering me free bandwidth for the codec, and no one else is... if that codec works for me.. awesome.. I'll use it.
There is no free. Ever. You pay, THEY decide how much of what you get. It's ALL paid for by you, it's just not neutral.
Yes scott... I know.. but that's not the point.. the point is there is a base rate they will charge.. and that rate includes stuff.. I'm not sure how else to describe the included stuff other than calling it the 'free' stuff.
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@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
Now - I do have to admit... I don't know if HBO/Youtube, etc had to PAY to get the codec.. if they did - yeah.. that's wrong.. and destroys my whole side of things.. the codec has to be the same price for all those that use it.
The codec would also have to apply to ALL media types, all possible types. Everything that could possibly exist. Audio, text, video, downloads, you name it.
fine.
And they'd have to run the servers, build it for them, make it free, etc. Why should an ISP determine the tech you use? They can manipulate nearly anything that they want that way.
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@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
There was NO speed change here - at least not that I'm aware of. What you did have affected by CHOOSing to use the codex is that use of codex would NOT count against your data pool, nothing more.
So you get charged for some things but not others. Are you not seeing how this is EXACTLY what we want NN to stop?
I see this as a billing advantage in my favor... instead of somethign against me.
That's the illusion. You pay and they decide which things get priority and which don't. It's never in your favour. Remember the discussion with Mike... in the end, the customer pays. TMobile decides which things you get faster or more of, and which you get less of. You never actually pay less, they just are saying that to make it sound okay.
It's not about paying less, in this case it's about getting more. before this free if codex thing.. my 2 GB plan would give me lets say 1 hour of streaming... now.. I can use that 2 GB for whatever.. and I can stream unlimited, as long as I use the codex.. I am way ahead.
So to reword this...
If all entertainment and news that support one political view is unlimited with your payment, and other entertainment and news that supports a different view is charged overages if you see it, you are just fine with that... because anything one thing is "unlimited" even though you've paid for it, you see it as a bonus regardless of the fact that a private company controls all decisions about what you get with your payment and what you don't?
No video provider has to pay and all video providers are allowed to join. So this arguments is not the same.
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@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
What I do see is one I don't get charged for, and one I do (yeah, I really do get charged because, like the mike thing.. the base bill could be even lower for just access, then we could pay for usage - and your absolutely right.. if it was that simple.. I would love that... but TMo is offering me free bandwidth for the codec, and no one else is... if that codec works for me.. awesome.. I'll use it.
There is no free. Ever. You pay, THEY decide how much of what you get. It's ALL paid for by you, it's just not neutral.
Yes scott... I know.. but that's not the point.. the point is there is a base rate they will charge.. and that rate includes stuff.. I'm not sure how else to describe the included stuff other than calling it the 'free' stuff.
No, that's NOT the point, that's how they trick you. that's the marketing. Don't call it free or you will convince yourself that you aren't just paying for it all.
You see it as a "deal", I see it as paying "extra" for freedom.
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@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
So we all want what “Net Neutrality” sounds like, but what’s in the actual law isn’t really that. I think that’s the short of it.
No, I want Net Neutrality, it sounds like everyone else wants exactly the opposite. Which is fine, but everyone needs to realize that a neutral Internet means you can never use marketing tricks to make unequal access sound appealing.
What you want too see from TMo instead of this 'free' space when you that codec, you want to see a lower bill, then you get to choose to spend that money buying bandwidth as you desire.. instead of seeing a higher bill ( but drastically less than the competition) that includes the "free" space... I think this is what you are saying.. and what you are calling a lack of NN.
What I want is neutrality. I never, ever, ever, ever, ever want an ISP to have the right to ever, ever, ever prioritize (in speed, bandwidth or antyhing else) where my money goes. I want to pay for access to the Internet, all of the Internet equally, and not have some private company deciding that some data gets to me faster or some data costs more than other data. I don't want a filtered Internet, I want a neutral Internet.
There it is..
And really - you can choose to be on TMo (you are, aren't you?) just never use the codec.. and you have NN with TMo because all your traffic will be exactly the same. -
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
There was NO speed change here - at least not that I'm aware of. What you did have affected by CHOOSing to use the codex is that use of codex would NOT count against your data pool, nothing more.
So you get charged for some things but not others. Are you not seeing how this is EXACTLY what we want NN to stop?
I see this as a billing advantage in my favor... instead of somethign against me.
That's the illusion. You pay and they decide which things get priority and which don't. It's never in your favour. Remember the discussion with Mike... in the end, the customer pays. TMobile decides which things you get faster or more of, and which you get less of. You never actually pay less, they just are saying that to make it sound okay.
It's not about paying less, in this case it's about getting more. before this free if codex thing.. my 2 GB plan would give me lets say 1 hour of streaming... now.. I can use that 2 GB for whatever.. and I can stream unlimited, as long as I use the codex.. I am way ahead.
So to reword this...
If all entertainment and news that support one political view is unlimited with your payment, and other entertainment and news that supports a different view is charged overages if you see it, you are just fine with that... because anything one thing is "unlimited" even though you've paid for it, you see it as a bonus regardless of the fact that a private company controls all decisions about what you get with your payment and what you don't?
No video provider has to pay and all video providers are allowed to join. So this arguments is not the same.
Prove it, how does ML do this right now. If I put a video on this site and it is not included, it woudl prove this false.
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@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
So we all want what “Net Neutrality” sounds like, but what’s in the actual law isn’t really that. I think that’s the short of it.
No, I want Net Neutrality, it sounds like everyone else wants exactly the opposite. Which is fine, but everyone needs to realize that a neutral Internet means you can never use marketing tricks to make unequal access sound appealing.
What you want too see from TMo instead of this 'free' space when you that codec, you want to see a lower bill, then you get to choose to spend that money buying bandwidth as you desire.. instead of seeing a higher bill ( but drastically less than the competition) that includes the "free" space... I think this is what you are saying.. and what you are calling a lack of NN.
What I want is neutrality. I never, ever, ever, ever, ever want an ISP to have the right to ever, ever, ever prioritize (in speed, bandwidth or antyhing else) where my money goes. I want to pay for access to the Internet, all of the Internet equally, and not have some private company deciding that some data gets to me faster or some data costs more than other data. I don't want a filtered Internet, I want a neutral Internet.
There it is..
And really - you can choose to be on TMo (you are, aren't you?) just never use the codec.. and you have NN with TMo because all your traffic will be exactly the same.You are making wild excuses, grasping at straws. I pay for all the access whether I use it or not. THEY control which things I get at what cost. THEY control my impressions of the world.
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@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
Imagine if your electric company said that powering Sony appliances gave you unlimited power, but if you powered Samsung, you'd have to pay? Instantly people would rave about the "free" power they now get... but of course, the power company could make a deal with Sony to raise their prices way higher than the power cost, and then pocket the difference. And if you didn't buy enough Sony devices, they'd fix that by raising the price of power until you did.
You, as the end user, would say "see how buying Sony saves me money" all while being manipulated by fake "free" costs and artificially raise prices for the vendors that don't pay off the power officials.
There, I think you finally brought a good outside argument to this conversation about why the "included in base plan" stuff is bad.
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@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
What I do see is one I don't get charged for, and one I do (yeah, I really do get charged because, like the mike thing.. the base bill could be even lower for just access, then we could pay for usage - and your absolutely right.. if it was that simple.. I would love that... but TMo is offering me free bandwidth for the codec, and no one else is... if that codec works for me.. awesome.. I'll use it.
There is no free. Ever. You pay, THEY decide how much of what you get. It's ALL paid for by you, it's just not neutral.
Yes scott... I know.. but that's not the point.. the point is there is a base rate they will charge.. and that rate includes stuff.. I'm not sure how else to describe the included stuff other than calling it the 'free' stuff.
Instead of "free" and "not free", think of it as "media they promote" and "media that they don't promote".
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@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
Imagine if your electric company said that powering Sony appliances gave you unlimited power, but if you powered Samsung, you'd have to pay? Instantly people would rave about the "free" power they now get... but of course, the power company could make a deal with Sony to raise their prices way higher than the power cost, and then pocket the difference. And if you didn't buy enough Sony devices, they'd fix that by raising the price of power until you did.
You, as the end user, would say "see how buying Sony saves me money" all while being manipulated by fake "free" costs and artificially raise prices for the vendors that don't pay off the power officials.
There, I think you finally brought a good outside argument to this conversation about why the "included in base plan" stuff is bad.
I thought that that was the concept in saying "it's not neutral". The only reason something isn't neutral is to manipulate what you get for some reason. Money, or political power, or whatever.
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https://mangolassi.it/topic/15870/what-net-neutrality-means-to-you-samit-video
made that this afternoon, it just got uploaded.
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Thankfully, the ISPs haven't yet had time to find a way to block or dramatically deprioritize (or overcharge) for information online that explains the fears of losing neutrality. Because once they do, you can be sure that critizing it will meet with "costs" of one sort or another.
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@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
So we all want what “Net Neutrality” sounds like, but what’s in the actual law isn’t really that. I think that’s the short of it.
No, I want Net Neutrality, it sounds like everyone else wants exactly the opposite. Which is fine, but everyone needs to realize that a neutral Internet means you can never use marketing tricks to make unequal access sound appealing.
What you want too see from TMo instead of this 'free' space when you that codec, you want to see a lower bill, then you get to choose to spend that money buying bandwidth as you desire.. instead of seeing a higher bill ( but drastically less than the competition) that includes the "free" space... I think this is what you are saying.. and what you are calling a lack of NN.
What I want is neutrality. I never, ever, ever, ever, ever want an ISP to have the right to ever, ever, ever prioritize (in speed, bandwidth or antyhing else) where my money goes. I want to pay for access to the Internet, all of the Internet equally, and not have some private company deciding that some data gets to me faster or some data costs more than other data. I don't want a filtered Internet, I want a neutral Internet.
There it is..
And really - you can choose to be on TMo (you are, aren't you?) just never use the codec.. and you have NN with TMo because all your traffic will be exactly the same.You are making wild excuses, grasping at straws. I pay for all the access whether I use it or not. THEY control which things I get at what cost. THEY control my impressions of the world.
They do that simply by charging you for bandwidth... so I'm not sure where you are going with that.
4K streaming won't really be a thing for most people because the bandwidth will push most consumers well over 1 TB used a month - OMG the ISPs are hurting me because of the bandwidth caps.
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@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
There was NO speed change here - at least not that I'm aware of. What you did have affected by CHOOSing to use the codex is that use of codex would NOT count against your data pool, nothing more.
So you get charged for some things but not others. Are you not seeing how this is EXACTLY what we want NN to stop?
I see this as a billing advantage in my favor... instead of somethign against me.
That's the illusion. You pay and they decide which things get priority and which don't. It's never in your favour. Remember the discussion with Mike... in the end, the customer pays. TMobile decides which things you get faster or more of, and which you get less of. You never actually pay less, they just are saying that to make it sound okay.
It's not about paying less, in this case it's about getting more. before this free if codex thing.. my 2 GB plan would give me lets say 1 hour of streaming... now.. I can use that 2 GB for whatever.. and I can stream unlimited, as long as I use the codex.. I am way ahead.
So to reword this...
If all entertainment and news that support one political view is unlimited with your payment, and other entertainment and news that supports a different view is charged overages if you see it, you are just fine with that... because anything one thing is "unlimited" even though you've paid for it, you see it as a bonus regardless of the fact that a private company controls all decisions about what you get with your payment and what you don't?
No video provider has to pay and all video providers are allowed to join. So this arguments is not the same.
Prove it, how does ML do this right now. If I put a video on this site and it is not included, it woudl prove this false.
Yes... if you have binge on and TMo they will stream for free.
It reduces video quality. Att now has stream saver because they had to do something to compete.
Not sure what Verizon has done.
Basically this year my data use dramatically dropped with stream saver, brought on by TMo shaking things up.
All of this is good for users, bad for telco profits and against “net neutrality”
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@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@bigbear said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
So we all want what “Net Neutrality” sounds like, but what’s in the actual law isn’t really that. I think that’s the short of it.
No, I want Net Neutrality, it sounds like everyone else wants exactly the opposite. Which is fine, but everyone needs to realize that a neutral Internet means you can never use marketing tricks to make unequal access sound appealing.
What you want too see from TMo instead of this 'free' space when you that codec, you want to see a lower bill, then you get to choose to spend that money buying bandwidth as you desire.. instead of seeing a higher bill ( but drastically less than the competition) that includes the "free" space... I think this is what you are saying.. and what you are calling a lack of NN.
What I want is neutrality. I never, ever, ever, ever, ever want an ISP to have the right to ever, ever, ever prioritize (in speed, bandwidth or antyhing else) where my money goes. I want to pay for access to the Internet, all of the Internet equally, and not have some private company deciding that some data gets to me faster or some data costs more than other data. I don't want a filtered Internet, I want a neutral Internet.
There it is..
And really - you can choose to be on TMo (you are, aren't you?) just never use the codec.. and you have NN with TMo because all your traffic will be exactly the same.You are making wild excuses, grasping at straws. I pay for all the access whether I use it or not. THEY control which things I get at what cost. THEY control my impressions of the world.
They do that simply by charging you for bandwidth... so I'm not sure where you are going with that.
All bandwidth, the same. That's fine. That's EXACTLY what I want.
In no way do they choose which gets priority and which doesn't. I and I alone chose by what I chose to download.
