Protecting companies from hourly employees
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@scottalanmiller You can tell an employee to go home for the day, evening, whatever. That's not the same as terminating their employment.
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@Danp said in Protecting companies from hourly employees:
@scottalanmiller said in Protecting companies from hourly employees:
@Danp said in Protecting companies from hourly employees:
@scottalanmiller said in Protecting companies from hourly employees:
What's the difference?
Easy... one is employed and the other is not.
But the similarity is that neither is employed at the time of the action.
Not true. The employee is employed from the date he was hired until the date he quits or is terminated. Just because he works at an unscheduled time does not make him unemployed.
It does by law, that's how you get to claim unemployment.
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@scottalanmiller Again... cite?
Edit: I read too quickly and thought you were responding to my other post. Still, I stand by my post that a person working at a non-scheduled time is still employed up until the point that he gets terminated for said work.
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@Danp said in Protecting companies from hourly employees:
@scottalanmiller You can tell an employee to go home for the day, evening, whatever. That's not the same as terminating their employment.
Are you sure? Because it acts exactly the same in every way. They have no rights any different from anyone else that is terminated. All legalities behave identically when you send someone home, furlough them or lay them off.
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@Danp said in Protecting companies from hourly employees:
@scottalanmiller Again... cite?
Cite how unemployment works? Do you really need a reference? Otherwise I could employee everyone in the country and simply refuse to give them hours, they'd be unable to claim unemployment because they would be "employed". Obviously that isn't true, it should need no citation because it is so obvious. I doubt that there is a citation to be made, it is that obvious. I'm not even sure what to call it. Because it is literally the same as being laid off, lay off rules would apply to it.
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And if you say that the employee can opt to quit when no hours are given - that does not work because quitting a job doesn't give you unemployment benefits.
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Lay Offs are defined in Texas, clearly being sent home at the end of the day is exactly like any other action:
"Laid Off
Layoffs are due to lack of work, not your work performance, so you may be eligible for benefits. For example, the employer has no more work available, has eliminated your position, or has closed the business."
http://www.twc.state.tx.us/jobseekers/eligibility-benefit-amounts
That's Texas, but all states basically work the same.
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No, cite how a person would be considered unemployed when they are between their daily shifts.
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@Danp said in Protecting companies from hourly employees:
No, cite how a person would be considered unemployed when they are between their daily shifts.
Right, one and the same. Which was easier to cite than I would have guessed.
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@Danp said in Protecting companies from hourly employees:
No, cite how a person would be considered unemployed when they are between their daily shifts.
Try it the opposite, cite how daily shifts are exempt from the normal lay off rules? You'd need the exception for the daily shifts, you are trying to make a special case out of a general one, no citation is needed unless a an exception exists. You are wanting me to prove the negative, which cant be done. If they are a special case, you should be able to find a citation of this to show how daily shifts are different than weekly, monthly, annual or whatever shifts.
For example, why is the break between Monday and Tuesday different than the one between one year and another for annual employees?
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All I am saying is that no special cases is needed nor do I believe that one exists.
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@scottalanmiller You mentioned layoffs. That's not what I was discussing. Sending someone home early (discipline, lack of work, etc) isn't a layoff and wouldn't qualify someone for unemployment.
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@Danp said in Protecting companies from hourly employees:
@scottalanmiller You mentioned layoffs. That's not what I was discussing. Sending someone home early (discipline, lack of work, etc) isn't a layoff and wouldn't qualify someone for unemployment.
But it does. It is and it does is what I am saying. It's a layoff "for the day" and if you don't give them additional hours before the unemployment wait window hits, they get unemployment for it. It every way that I know of, it acts like a layoff because, AFAIK, it is. I have no idea what makes it different than any other layoff.
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@scottalanmiller said in Protecting companies from hourly employees:
@Danp said in Protecting companies from hourly employees:
@scottalanmiller You can tell an employee to go home for the day, evening, whatever. That's not the same as terminating their employment.
Are you sure? Because it acts exactly the same in every way. They have no rights any different from anyone else that is terminated. All legalities behave identically when you send someone home, furlough them or lay them off.
Yes, I'm sure.
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@Danp said in Protecting companies from hourly employees:
@scottalanmiller said in Protecting companies from hourly employees:
@Danp said in Protecting companies from hourly employees:
@scottalanmiller You can tell an employee to go home for the day, evening, whatever. That's not the same as terminating their employment.
Are you sure? Because it acts exactly the same in every way. They have no rights any different from anyone else that is terminated. All legalities behave identically when you send someone home, furlough them or lay them off.
Yes, I'm sure.
Then provide a citation. Because everything I know and can find says exactly the opposite. As does all of my training on employment law.
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I've worked as an employer, as an hourly blue collar manager, and sending someone home early for an hour, a day, a week, forever.... all exactly the same. There are two forms of doing this, one where the two of you agree as to when they will return to work, and one where you don't. Both are lay offs, but we tend to call one a furlough and one a lay off, but both are lay offs.
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@scottalanmiller I'm not the one making wild claims about employment / unemployment without any proof to back it up. You've stated your opinion without backing it up with any real facts. You muddy the discussion by throwing in layoffs when it doesn't apply to the discussion.
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Likewise, if you don't arrange with someone for when they need to return to work (end of furlough) whether it is the next day, next week, next month... they are under zero obligation to return and have zero obligation to give notice. Failure to return under that condition is not quitting, it is failure to agree to re-hire.
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@Danp said in Protecting companies from hourly employees:
@scottalanmiller I'm not the one making wild claims about employment / unemployment without any proof to back it up. You've stated your opinion without backing it up with any real facts. You muddy the discussion by throwing in layoffs when it doesn't apply to the discussion.
I provided citation and obvious logic as to how it works. Nothing even slightly wild in what I am saying. Not even kinda. Layoffs absolutely apply because we are talking about employees who have been sent home. The muddying comes from trying to make a new special case that does not exist in the US. I can't provide a citation to the obvious because you are asking for something that does not exist. If your claim is true, you'd be able to find a citation of it.
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What do you call "Sending someone home and not allowing them to work until you agree to take them back?"
I call it a lay off, you call it "different things depending on criteria that you've not provided." What makes one thing a shift and another a lay off? How do you define one from the other? If you believe this to be true, you must have a definition that explains how this works. To me, this is all one thing. I can't tell how the same action is one thing in one case and another in another.
As an employee that has been sent home at the end of the day and has been through layoffs, I can assure you that to an employee it is all exactly the same - sent home and unable to work until they let you back.
