Staying in Ethics and Legal with ChatGPT usage?
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I wonder if maybe, and I'm just wondering, if maybe you have a goal like "Learn to write a paper well." And then add "manually", I get that. So let's assume that that is the goal.
Then this would clearly make ChatGPT a valuable research tool, even a sample generating tool, but using it to avoid "manually writing the paper" would logically violate the point.
For me, a key goal would be to "avoid anyone needing to learn to write papers." Because to me, that is a skill that exists only to placate incompetent professors to fill time to avoid learning more meaningful material. Being able to write well, something I take great pride in being good at, is essentially worthless. It has very little, if any, academic benefit and basically no function in the workplace. It's an entire human activity that exists only to waste time in the school process.
Being able to research and produce good information on a topic is super important. And if ChatGPT does that better than a human, then learning ChatGPT is the appropriate means to that end. But laying out that information, while potentially valuable forty years ago, isn't valuable today. So the last thing I would want to do is waste students' time on it instead of having them learning things that they can use in the future.
I find the time spent learning how to write, learning how to cite, how to format essays to be directly counter to educational goals. Wasting time, while expending effort, is highly detrimental because your brain works very hard doing things it is bad at (double checking citations is labor intensive and a wholly worthless activity - it's just about coping notes correctly) making it exhausted and not leaving time or energy for learning valuable things.
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@scottalanmiller said in Staying in Ethics and Legal with ChatGPT usage?:
I wonder if maybe, and I'm just wondering, if maybe you have a goal like "Learn to write a paper well." And then add "manually", I get that. So let's assume that that is the goal.
Then this would clearly make ChatGPT a valuable research tool, even a sample generating tool, but using it to avoid "manually writing the paper" would logically violate the point.
For me, a key goal would be to "avoid anyone needing to learn to write papers." Because to me, that is a skill that exists only to placate incompetent professors to fill time to avoid learning more meaningful material. Being able to write well, something I take great pride in being good at, is essentially worthless. It has very little, if any, academic benefit and basically no function in the workplace. It's an entire human activity that exists only to waste time in the school process.
Being able to research and produce good information on a topic is super important. And if ChatGPT does that better than a human, then learning ChatGPT is the appropriate means to that end. But laying out that information, while potentially valuable forty years ago, isn't valuable today. So the last thing I would want to do is waste students' time on it instead of having them learning things that they can use in the future.
I find the time spent learning how to write, learning how to cite, how to format essays to be directly counter to educational goals. Wasting time, while expending effort, is highly detrimental because your brain works very hard doing things it is bad at (double checking citations is labor intensive and a wholly worthless activity - it's just about coping notes correctly) making it exhausted and not leaving time or energy for learning valuable things.
Scott,
That's a whole lot of words. Again, we seem to be at the point where I've made simple points and backed them up and end up with a dissertation as to why my conclusions are wrong, usually based on some sort of feelings type thing.
I will repeat myself this one last time: The human person produces something from their mind and heart. Some call it art, some call it poetry, some call it literature, and so much more. A dissertation or a thesis would be another set of examples or perhaps an essay on a Dostoyevsky novel.
That creativity comes from that person. Thus, they own what they have done.
There is no way to reconcile what comes from within a person via their own thought processes and creativity and what comes from a machine as far as ownership goes.
They are not the same and never will be.
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@PhlipElder said in Staying in Ethics and Legal with ChatGPT usage?:
That's a whole lot of words. Again, we seem to be at the point where I've made simple points and backed them up and end up with a dissertation as to why my conclusions are wrong, usually based on some sort of feelings type thing.
No, you didn't read. I said I felt your conclusions were confusing because you didn't give an intended goal and that I felt your conclusions all supported by point if you shared my goals. That's why I stated what the goals are.
You'll notice I carefully noted that I, you, and all people are emotional. You act like you aren't a human and are just logical, but then talk about the value of creativity in this process. I pointed out, I feel quite logically, that humans are inherently non-logical and acknowledged that all of us, no exceptions, get our first thoughts emotionally and then attempt (hopefully) to apply logic to that initial emotion. I've said I feel many times.
I can't help but feel that you take offense at being given humanity in how I speak.
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@PhlipElder said in Staying in Ethics and Legal with ChatGPT usage?:
That creativity comes from that person. Thus, they own what they have done.
There is no way to reconcile what comes from within a person via their own thought processes and creativity and what comes from a machine as far as ownership goes.
They are not the same and never will be.So again... you are saying that the TOOL owns the output?
And you are saying that word processors, spell checkers, Grammarly and other tools own the output?
If you take out the emotion and only use logic, I can't see how you can't make this make sense unless you see all tools equally. What makes you treat ChatGPT, which is not the only AI writing enhancer in the list, uniquely.
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@PhlipElder said in Staying in Ethics and Legal with ChatGPT usage?:
The human person produces something from their mind and heart. Some call it art, some call it poetry, some call it literature, and so much more. A dissertation or a thesis would be another set of examples or perhaps an essay on a Dostoyevsky novel.
That creativity comes from that person. Thus, they own what they have done.For sure, and they do so using tools. And the output of those tools, whether a pencil or ChatGPT, is the creation of the operator of that tool. It is the creativity, the skill, the knowledge that it takes to operate that tool that makes the difference between good and bad output. Tools like ChatGPT (or a spell checker or a pencil) don't REMOVE creativity, they remove the non-creative portions of the work allowing MORE focus on the important parts that you describe. This is why ChatGPT is the current king of "allowing for the most creativity for humanity", removing the most (so far) of the unnecessary mechanical components that aren't creative.
Like I said, every time you give a logical argument, I see you agreeing with my assessment. But then you act like you said the opposite.
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So critically, I ask again, given that you state that you are using logic and not emotions, logically you can only use logic if there is a goal to use the logical operators against. I stated my goals and asked if yours were the same or different.
I struggle to understand the claim of using logic in a scenario where there is no stated or implied goals. How can one claim to have logically steps towards a goal if no goal exists? This in inherently, I feel, non-logical as a process.
I don't think you can say that the interpretation is logical until you state the goal.
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@PhlipElder said in Staying in Ethics and Legal with ChatGPT usage?:
That creativity comes from that person. Thus, they own what they have done.
Just to be clear, the language and the law agree and agree that the use of tools to do this changes nothing.
So we are totally in agreement on these statements. And these statements were the basis of my logic that I laid out.
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@scottalanmiller said in Staying in Ethics and Legal with ChatGPT usage?:
@PhlipElder said in Staying in Ethics and Legal with ChatGPT usage?:
That creativity comes from that person. Thus, they own what they have done.
Just to be clear, the language and the law agree and agree that the use of tools to do this changes nothing.
So we are totally in agreement on these statements. And these statements were the basis of my logic that I laid out.
Scott,
I don't understand the need to make things so complicated.
My point is not being registered. So, let's leave it lie.
Agree to disagree.
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@PhlipElder said in Staying in Ethics and Legal with ChatGPT usage?:
My point is not being registered. So, let's leave it lie.
But how can we agree or disagree when you haven't stated what your goal is? There is nothing to agree or disagree on.
Unless your only point was to disagree with me and were only arguing for its own sake. I made a point that I feel I worked hard to reason and research. You provided logic that solidly supported my point, but argued against my point, but haven't said (where I noticed it) what your point was.
To the points of ethics and legality, copyright and plagiarism, my understanding is that everyone is in 100% agreement of the facts and that there really is no grey area or room for opinion. There's nothing to even discuss.
The only point of real discussion is the goals, it seems. I want what is best for the student, worker, and humanity and think that the goals I've written support that. But that, I think, is where I'm most likely to be wrong. But I don't think anyone has even tried to agree or disagree with that.
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@PhlipElder said in Staying in Ethics and Legal with ChatGPT usage?:
My point is not being registered.
That's why I asked you straight up multiple times to state your point (goals) clearly so that we'd know what we were talking about. Like I did for you.
