What would your recommendation be for a Type 1 Hypervisor - including backup and restoration options
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@dyasny said in What would your recommendation be for a Type 1 Hypervisor - including backup and restoration options:
@scottalanmiller said in What would your recommendation be for a Type 1 Hypervisor - including backup and restoration options:
Dom0 has some schedulers, but that's not really relevant. If you understand type 1 vs type 2, then your statement here doesn't really make sense. I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
Why isn't it relevant? You have a kernel booted up, containing a set of drivers and schedulers, then you have a management VM coming up containing it's own kernel, drivers and schedulers, and some of the system calls a VM executes will have to go through the Dom0's schedulers, to reach the DomU drivers and make syscalls and some will go to the DomU. And yes, some will go to Dom0, which will direct them to DomU (there was a diagram published about all that circa 2011 with the specific calls). How is that more efficient that a single set of schedulers?
You can't just say "this is irrelevant" when it goes against the point you're trying to prove
It's not relevant because it's not under the kernel, so unrelated to what we are discussing. You can layer on as many schedulers on top of things that you want. But we were talking about X and this simply doesn't relate to that discussion.
Your statement of "how is it more efficient than..." doesn't make any sense in this context. It implies something said that wasn't, so there is nothing clear to answer.
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@dyasny said in What would your recommendation be for a Type 1 Hypervisor - including backup and restoration options:
@scottalanmiller said in What would your recommendation be for a Type 1 Hypervisor - including backup and restoration options:
I have, for years. You are claiming that those proofs are not true. You are claiming that not only I am wrong, but Wikipedia, Microsoft, and the industry. Yet don't even have a suggestion of supporting documentation. Based on what do you make these wild claims?
I'm simply agreeing that the sky is blue. You are claiming it red. But have nothing to support that theory.
Oh no, you don't get to turn this one around. You claim hyper-v had the same architecture as xen since its first versions - you prove that.
I just did twice. You claimed it didn't.. based on what?
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@scottalanmiller said in What would your recommendation be for a Type 1 Hypervisor - including backup and restoration options:
Now you are mixing apps with the OS. An RTOS can still do basically anything. As could a phone OS. You are mixing the concept of "general purpose" with the amount of power systems had in the past. Very different concepts.
Nothing to do with power, just the ability to perform a set of operations on given hardware. If you implement an OS that is limited in what it can do, it is still an OS, that's all I'm saying
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@scottalanmiller said in What would your recommendation be for a Type 1 Hypervisor - including backup and restoration options:
It's not relevant because it's not under the kernel, so unrelated to what we are discussing. You can layer on as many schedulers on top of things that you want. But we were talking about X and this simply doesn't relate to that discussion.
Your statement of "how is it more efficient than..." doesn't make any sense in this context. It implies something said that wasn't, so there is nothing clear to answer.
Replace "efficient" with "better architecture" and try again, if you prefer to stick to the exact wording, I really don't mind
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@dyasny said in What would your recommendation be for a Type 1 Hypervisor - including backup and restoration options:
@scottalanmiller said in What would your recommendation be for a Type 1 Hypervisor - including backup and restoration options:
Now you are mixing apps with the OS. An RTOS can still do basically anything. As could a phone OS. You are mixing the concept of "general purpose" with the amount of power systems had in the past. Very different concepts.
Nothing to do with power, just the ability to perform a set of operations on given hardware. If you implement an OS that is limited in what it can do, it is still an OS, that's all I'm saying
And I'm saying it is not an OS if you do so. Calling it an OS makes it seem like it must be. But the real answer is "if you implement an system that falls short of being an OS, it's not an OS." You are starting the statement by claiming it is an OS, so no matter how limited it is, it can't be so limited as to not be an OS. You are using it being an OS as the starting point.
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@dyasny said in What would your recommendation be for a Type 1 Hypervisor - including backup and restoration options:
@scottalanmiller said in What would your recommendation be for a Type 1 Hypervisor - including backup and restoration options:
It's not relevant because it's not under the kernel, so unrelated to what we are discussing. You can layer on as many schedulers on top of things that you want. But we were talking about X and this simply doesn't relate to that discussion.
Your statement of "how is it more efficient than..." doesn't make any sense in this context. It implies something said that wasn't, so there is nothing clear to answer.
Replace "efficient" with "better architecture" and try again, if you prefer to stick to the exact wording, I really don't mind
My point was, whatever you asked didn't related to what was said. You are asking me to defend a point I didn't make.
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@scottalanmiller said in What would your recommendation be for a Type 1 Hypervisor - including backup and restoration options:
I just did twice.
By referring to a post you wrote? Not good enough
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@scottalanmiller said in What would your recommendation be for a Type 1 Hypervisor - including backup and restoration options:
And I'm saying it is not an OS if you do so. Calling it an OS makes it seem like it must be. But the real answer is "if you implement an system that falls short of being an OS, it's not an OS." You are starting the statement by claiming it is an OS, so no matter how limited it is, it can't be so limited as to not be an OS. You are using it being an OS as the starting point.
Because it is an OS, by the very definition you provided yourself.
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@dyasny said in What would your recommendation be for a Type 1 Hypervisor - including backup and restoration options:
@scottalanmiller said in What would your recommendation be for a Type 1 Hypervisor - including backup and restoration options:
I just did twice.
By referring to a post you wrote? Not good enough
No, I'm referring to the two references I provided. Wikipedia and StackOverflow.
Here is another...
https://www.brianmadden.com/opinion/Microsoft-Windows-Server-2008-Hyper-V-solution-overview
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@dyasny said in What would your recommendation be for a Type 1 Hypervisor - including backup and restoration options:
@scottalanmiller said in What would your recommendation be for a Type 1 Hypervisor - including backup and restoration options:
And I'm saying it is not an OS if you do so. Calling it an OS makes it seem like it must be. But the real answer is "if you implement an system that falls short of being an OS, it's not an OS." You are starting the statement by claiming it is an OS, so no matter how limited it is, it can't be so limited as to not be an OS. You are using it being an OS as the starting point.
Because it is an OS, by the very definition you provided yourself.
Then it can run whatever and your "limited" clearly isn't limited.
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I've provided three references, plus have been through this countless times. At some point you need to produce something. Again, the sky is blue. At some point, standard knowledge being questioned needs some proof.
Sure, at some point, people didn't believe the Earth circles the sun. The "industry" can be wrong. But you still have to provide more than "I said so now" about something being something long ago. I wrote about this being a myth at the time.
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Another wikipedia source written at the time...
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Basically what I am saying is not that you can't be right, but you are solidly into the realm of conspiracy theory. You are stating that everyone discussing Hyper-V during the 2008 and 2008 R2 era (and everyone since), including Microsoft themselves, are involved in having produced a huge cover up. And one that would make no sense as their customers widely didn't care or understand anyway. Pretty much the entire industry has to be involved in a coordinated effort to support Microsoft's claim of how they designed their software.
And common sense says that given the failures of trying the Type 2 route to get to market quickly, and having had time to observe Xen and ESX success, and having the resources to build software like they do... that Microsoft would have done the logical thing - which all sources agree that they did.
So you see, I think it is reasonable to say that I have gone above and beyond, both at the time and regurgitating it now, to show that it is reasonable to believe Microsoft and the industry. If you want to claim it is all a conspiracy, fine. But there isn't even a behavioural hint, market value, or reason of any sort that we know of for Microsoft to have lied about this. It would have been easier to have just done it that way.
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Another 2008 era resource (I'm using Google's time limiting to make sure I'm only getting content that hasn't been written later about it...)
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@scottalanmiller said in What would your recommendation be for a Type 1 Hypervisor - including backup and restoration options:
LIke I said, you need to provide your documentation that goes against everything in the industry. You made the claim.
Here you go again with "everything in the industry". Show me this "everything"
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@dyasny said in What would your recommendation be for a Type 1 Hypervisor - including backup and restoration options:
@scottalanmiller said in What would your recommendation be for a Type 1 Hypervisor - including backup and restoration options:
LIke I said, you need to provide your documentation that goes against everything in the industry. You made the claim.
Here you go again with "everything in the industry". Show me this "everything"
What do you think that I've been doing?
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@scottalanmiller said in What would your recommendation be for a Type 1 Hypervisor - including backup and restoration options:
What do you think that I've been doing?
Sorry, don't have as much time for online debates as you do, I'm looking at what you posted right now, thanks for taking the time
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@dyasny said in What would your recommendation be for a Type 1 Hypervisor - including backup and restoration options:
@scottalanmiller said in What would your recommendation be for a Type 1 Hypervisor - including backup and restoration options:
What do you think that I've been doing?
Sorry, don't have as much time for online debates as you do, I'm looking at what you posted right now, thanks for taking the time
I think of it as critical industry education.
But I would say that making wild counter-industry claims of a conspiracy to cover up systems architectures, going against a decade of discussion on this very topic, is something that should be held back if you don't have the time to really delve into it. Knowing that you are trying to completely redefine OS, kernel, hypervisor, hypervisor types, Hyper-V history... all of those things are fine, but it is a bit of a crusade that takes a lot of time.
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https://www.itprotoday.com/virtualization/windows-server-2008-hyper-v-security
Hyper-V Architectural Defenses
When Hyper-V loads, it creates a thin abstraction layer (less than 1MB) called the hypervisor. It operates between the physical server hardware and the host OS. The hypervisor interfaces directly with the server hardware and loads before the host OS starts. You could also define the hypervisor as a mini OS that allows for the virtualization of other OSs on top of it. All OSs that run on a Hyper-V server (both the virtualized ones and the host OS) always run inside a virtual machine (VM) that's under the watchful eye of the hypervisor. Virtual Server uses a different approach in which the host OS runs beside the virtualization layer, and the host OS also directly interfaces with the hardware.
