Are Minimal installs really better?
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Minimal but not to the point of reaching alpine linux minimal. If you consider what is driving containers and everything it is about being very small and launch in seconds.. and they told me crazy when I spend hours making Windows xp and 7 as lite as possible 10 years ago and trimming the fat just to run single app like a game, i was such visionary.
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Also even when you install something bigger, what you need isn't always there anyway.
I consider for instance
screento be a pretty basic tool. Not in Fedora Server.
nmap? Not in Fedora Server.
tcpdump? Yes, it was there.
iperf? No, not in Fedora Server.
smartctl? Yes, it was there.I think whatever you distro/installation options you pick, you are going to need to add stuff anyway. If that is part of the post-installation process then it's going to be there when you need it.
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@Pete-S said in Are Minimal installs really better?:
Also even when you install something bigger, what you need isn't always there anyway.
I consider for instance
screento be a pretty basic tool. Not in Fedora Server.
nmap? Not in Fedora Server.
tcpdump? Yes, it was there.
iperf? No, not in Fedora Server.
smartctl? Yes, it was there.I think whatever you distro/installation options you pick, you are going to need to add stuff anyway. If that is part of the post-installation process then it's going to be there when you need it.
The problem is that when you have many different admins that use different tools. You might use Nmap while some people just want to use netcat. If netcat isn't installed, I probably wouldn't even think to use Nmap just because Nmap isn't standard. Nmap will also trigger the hell out IDS systems
Every admin is going to install their own shit and they will be configuration drift. If you had the full sever install there is arguably enough tools to do everything. Sure you are going to want to install a few packages, but not the amount you will add with minimal.
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@IRJ said in Are Minimal installs really better?:
If you had the full sever install there is arguably enough tools to do everything.
The above stuff was from Fedora Server install, not minimal.
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@Pete-S said in Are Minimal installs really better?:
@IRJ said in Are Minimal installs really better?:
If you had the full sever install there is arguably enough tools to do everything.
The above stuff was from Fedora Server install, not minimal.
You left out my next sentence
If you had the full sever install there is arguably enough tools to do everything. Sure you are going to want to install a few packages, but not the amount you will add with minimal.
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@IRJ said in Are Minimal installs really better?:
Every admin is going to install their own shit and they will be configuration drift.
That's a company standard problem, not an OS problem.
If a couple of guys doing admin work on the same machines sit down and think through what they use, you could probably come up with a comprehensive list that makes everyone happy. Post-install those packages are added on every machine.
On a regular basis you review the package list and add stuff or remove stuff and that becomes the new standard. Then push it out to all servers with automation.
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@IRJ said in Are Minimal installs really better?:
@Pete-S said in Are Minimal installs really better?:
@IRJ said in Are Minimal installs really better?:
If you had the full sever install there is arguably enough tools to do everything.
The above stuff was from Fedora Server install, not minimal.
You left out my next sentence
If you had the full sever install there is arguably enough tools to do everything. Sure you are going to want to install a few packages, but not the amount you will add with minimal.
OK, I get it now.
Well, if you think Fedora Server is closer to what you want in a minimal install I don't see a problem using that instead. And then adding whatever is missing.
You get stuff like cockpit too but maybe that is something you always want.
I don't know if fedora has a list of packages that are added for each installation option.
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@Pete-S said in Are Minimal installs really better?:
@IRJ said in Are Minimal installs really better?:
@Pete-S said in Are Minimal installs really better?:
@IRJ said in Are Minimal installs really better?:
If you had the full sever install there is arguably enough tools to do everything.
The above stuff was from Fedora Server install, not minimal.
You left out my next sentence
If you had the full sever install there is arguably enough tools to do everything. Sure you are going to want to install a few packages, but not the amount you will add with minimal.
OK, I get it now.
Well, if you think Fedora Server is closer to what you want in a minimal install I don't see a problem using that instead. And then adding whatever is missing.
You get stuff like cockpit too but maybe that is something you always want.
I don't know if fedora has a list of packages that are added for each installation option.
View group installs
dnf grouplistView packages within group installs
dnf groupinfo "Development Tools" -
Fedora Server adds this over Minimal Install (in Fedora 30)
I looked at:
dnf group list
and
dnf group info "<groupname>"Difference between Minimal Install and Fedora Server Edition:
It's not the whole truth though because some of these packages are installed in Minimal Install but they are listed as optional. I don't know when packages that are marked optional actually are installed or not. One example is the packages in the Standard group.
Common NetworkManager Submodules NetworkManager-bluetooth NetworkManager-wifi NetworkManager-wwan dhcp-client dnsmasq iptablesFedora Server product core PackageKit chrony polkit realmd timedatex NetworkManager-team dhcp-client fedora-release-serverHardware Support atmel-firmware b43-fwcutter b43-openfwwf ipw2100-firmware ipw2200-firmware iwl100-firmware iwl1000-firmware iwl105-firmware iwl135-firmware iwl2000-firmware iwl2030-firmware iwl3160-firmware iwl3945-firmware iwl4965-firmware iwl5000-firmware iwl5150-firmware iwl6000-firmware iwl6000g2a-firmware iwl6000g2b-firmware iwl6050-firmware iwl7260-firmware libertas-usb8388-firmware usb_modeswitch zd1211-firmwareHeadless Management PackageKit cockpit openssh-server cockpit-networkmanager cockpit-packagekit cockpit-selinux cockpit-storagedStandard abrt-cli acl at attr bash-completion bc bind-utils bridge-utils btrfs-progs bzip2 cifs-utils cpio crontabs cryptsetup cyrus-sasl-plain dbus deltarpm dos2unix dosfstools ed ethtool fedora-release-notes file fpaste fprintd-pam gnupg2 grubby hunspell iptstate irqbalance jwhois logrotate lsof mailcap man-pages mcelog mdadm microcode_ctl mlocate mtr nano net-tools nfs-utils nmap-ncat ntfs-3g ntfsprogs opensc pam_krb5 passwdqc pciutils pinfo plymouth psacct quota realmd rng-tools rsync rsyslog smartmontools sos sssd sudo symlinks systemd-udev tar tcpdump telnet time traceroute tree unzip usbutils util-linux-user vconfig wget which wireless-tools words zip -
@black3dynamite said in Are Minimal installs really better?:
I don't know if fedora has a list of packages that are added for each installation option.
View group installs
dnf grouplistView packages within group installs
dnf groupinfo "Development Tools"Thanks, I managed to figure that out.
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@Pete-S said in Are Minimal installs really better?:
Fedora Server adds this over Minimal Install (in Fedora 30)
I looked at:
dnf group list
and
dnf group info "<groupname>"Difference between Minimal Install and Fedora Server Edition:
It's not the whole truth though because some of these packages are installed in Minimal Install but they are listed as optional. I don't know when packages that are marked optional actually are installed or not. One example is the packages in the Standard group.
Common NetworkManager Submodules NetworkManager-bluetooth NetworkManager-wifi NetworkManager-wwan dhcp-client dnsmasq iptables Fedora Server product core PackageKit chrony polkit realmd timedatex NetworkManager-team dhcp-client fedora-release-server Hardware Support atmel-firmware b43-fwcutter b43-openfwwf ipw2100-firmware ipw2200-firmware iwl100-firmware iwl1000-firmware iwl105-firmware iwl135-firmware iwl2000-firmware iwl2030-firmware iwl3160-firmware iwl3945-firmware iwl4965-firmware iwl5000-firmware iwl5150-firmware iwl6000-firmware iwl6000g2a-firmware iwl6000g2b-firmware iwl6050-firmware iwl7260-firmware libertas-usb8388-firmware usb_modeswitch zd1211-firmware Headless Management PackageKit cockpit openssh-server cockpit-networkmanager cockpit-packagekit cockpit-selinux cockpit-storaged Standard abrt-cli acl at attr bash-completion bc bind-utils bridge-utils btrfs-progs bzip2 cifs-utils cpio crontabs cryptsetup cyrus-sasl-plain dbus deltarpm dos2unix dosfstools ed ethtool fedora-release-notes file fpaste fprintd-pam gnupg2 grubby hunspell iptstate irqbalance jwhois logrotate lsof mailcap man-pages mcelog mdadm microcode_ctl mlocate mtr nano net-tools nfs-utils nmap-ncat ntfs-3g ntfsprogs opensc pam_krb5 passwdqc pciutils pinfo plymouth psacct quota realmd rng-tools rsync rsyslog smartmontools sos sssd sudo symlinks systemd-udev tar tcpdump telnet time traceroute tree unzip usbutils util-linux-user vconfig wget which wireless-tools words zipI know if wanted to include the optional packages, I would use
--with-optional -
I know if wanted to include the optional packages, I would use
--with-optionalAhh, good to know.
Anyway if one wanted something between minimal and fedora server but without cockpit, bluetooth and such, you could install minimal and then run
dnf install @standardto get the packages from the standard group, which is most of the utilities.BTW, it took less than 30 seconds to download and install the standard package on my test system. It's many packages total but they are small.
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@Pete-S said in Are Minimal installs really better?:
I know if wanted to include the optional packages, I would use
--with-optionalAhh, good to know.
Anyway if one wanted something between minimal and fedora server but without cockpit, bluetooth and such, you could install minimal and then run
dnf install @standardto get the packages from the standard group, which is most of the utilities.BTW, it took less than 30 seconds to download and install the standard package on my test system. It's many packages total but they are small.
And also can do this during the software selection screen too.
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Now there are some negative when installing standard groups. You end up having packages like these installed even though you are setting up a headless server.
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@black3dynamite said in Are Minimal installs really better?:
Now there are some negative when installing standard groups. You end up having packages like these installed even though you are setting up a headless server.
Where was those? They were not in the standard group when I looked.
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@Pete-S said in Are Minimal installs really better?:
@black3dynamite said in Are Minimal installs really better?:
Now there are some negative when installing standard groups. You end up having packages like these installed even though you are setting up a headless server.
Where was those? They were not in the standard group when I looked.
Packages like those are dependencies and weak dependencies of the group/module packages.
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@black3dynamite said in Are Minimal installs really better?:
@Pete-S said in Are Minimal installs really better?:
@black3dynamite said in Are Minimal installs really better?:
Now there are some negative when installing standard groups. You end up having packages like these installed even though you are setting up a headless server.
Where was those? They were not in the standard group when I looked.
Packages like those are dependencies and weak dependencies of the group/module packages.
Hmm, you're right. They get installed for sure.
I just did this.
These are all the packages that gets installed then installing the standard group on an 100% clean Fedora 30 Minimal install:
(exactly the same as what you get with the installer when you select minimal+standard)================================================================================ Package Arch Version Repo Size ================================================================================ Installing group/module packages: abrt-cli x86_64 2.12.2-1.fc30 updates 15 k bind-utils x86_64 32:9.11.9-1.fc30 updates 178 k btrfs-progs x86_64 5.1-1.fc30 updates 739 k cifs-utils x86_64 6.9-1.fc30 updates 88 k cryptsetup x86_64 2.2.0-1.fc30 updates 176 k ethtool x86_64 2:5.2-1.fc30 updates 151 k fprintd-pam x86_64 0.9.0-1.fc30 updates 17 k microcode_ctl x86_64 2:2.1-30.fc30 updates 1.9 M nano x86_64 4.2-2.fc30 updates 592 k nfs-utils x86_64 1:2.4.1-0.fc30 updates 404 k nmap-ncat x86_64 2:7.70-7.fc30 updates 210 k rng-tools x86_64 6.7-2.fc30 updates 53 k rsync x86_64 3.1.3-8.fc30 updates 397 k rsyslog x86_64 8.1907.0-1.fc30 updates 651 k sssd x86_64 2.2.0-3.fc30 updates 33 k usbutils x86_64 012-2.fc30 updates 104 k util-linux-user x86_64 2.33.2-2.fc30 updates 29 k at x86_64 3.1.23-2.fc30 fedora 60 k attr x86_64 2.4.48-5.fc30 fedora 57 k bash-completion noarch 1:2.8-6.fc30 fedora 278 k bc x86_64 1.07.1-8.fc30 fedora 115 k bridge-utils x86_64 1.6-3.fc30 fedora 32 k bzip2 x86_64 1.0.6-29.fc30 fedora 49 k crontabs noarch 1.11-18.20150630git.fc30 fedora 18 k cyrus-sasl-plain x86_64 2.1.27-0.6rc7.fc30 fedora 21 k dos2unix x86_64 7.4.0-6.fc30 fedora 230 k dosfstools x86_64 4.1-8.fc30 fedora 107 k ed x86_64 1.14.2-6.fc30 fedora 73 k fedora-release-notes noarch 28.01-3.fc30 fedora 105 k fpaste noarch 0.3.9.2-2.fc30 fedora 31 k hunspell x86_64 1.7.0-2.fc30 fedora 334 k iptstate x86_64 2.2.6-8.fc30 fedora 48 k irqbalance x86_64 2:1.4.0-3.fc30 fedora 44 k jwhois x86_64 4.0-56.fc30 fedora 111 k logrotate x86_64 3.15.0-2.fc30 fedora 70 k lsof x86_64 4.91-3.fc30 fedora 243 k mailcap noarch 2.1.48-5.fc30 fedora 31 k man-pages noarch 4.16-4.fc30 fedora 5.9 M mcelog x86_64 3:153-4.fc30 fedora 70 k mdadm x86_64 4.1-rc2.0.3.fc30 fedora 391 k mlocate x86_64 0.26-23.fc30 fedora 111 k mtr x86_64 2:0.92-4.fc30 fedora 80 k net-tools x86_64 2.0-0.54.20160912git.fc30 fedora 279 k ntfsprogs x86_64 2:2017.3.23-11.fc30 fedora 359 k opensc x86_64 0.19.0-6.fc30 fedora 1.1 M pam_krb5 x86_64 2.4.13-13.fc30 fedora 137 k passwdqc x86_64 1.3.0-14.fc30 fedora 36 k pciutils x86_64 3.6.2-2.fc30 fedora 91 k pinfo x86_64 0.6.10-20.fc29 fedora 114 k psacct x86_64 6.6.4-4.fc30 fedora 84 k quota x86_64 1:4.04-12.fc30 fedora 170 k realmd x86_64 0.16.3-19.fc30 fedora 212 k smartmontools x86_64 1:7.0-5.fc30 fedora 527 k sos noarch 3.7-1.fc30 fedora 476 k symlinks x86_64 1.4-22.fc30 fedora 17 k tar x86_64 2:1.32-1.fc30 fedora 863 k tcpdump x86_64 14:4.9.2-7.fc30 fedora 449 k telnet x86_64 1:0.17-76.fc30 fedora 59 k time x86_64 1.9-6.fc30 fedora 47 k traceroute x86_64 3:2.1.0-8.fc30 fedora 54 k tree x86_64 1.8.0-2.fc30 fedora 53 k unzip x86_64 6.0-43.fc30 fedora 175 k vconfig x86_64 1.9-26.fc30 fedora 26 k wget x86_64 1.20.3-1.fc30 fedora 772 k wireless-tools x86_64 1:29-22.fc30 fedora 100 k words noarch 3.0-33.fc30 fedora 1.4 M zip x86_64 3.0-24.fc30 fedora 264 k Installing dependencies: abrt x86_64 2.12.2-1.fc30 updates 519 k abrt-addon-ccpp x86_64 2.12.2-1.fc30 updates 120 k abrt-addon-coredump-helper x86_64 2.12.2-1.fc30 updates 31 k abrt-addon-kerneloops x86_64 2.12.2-1.fc30 updates 43 k abrt-addon-pstoreoops x86_64 2.12.2-1.fc30 updates 24 k abrt-addon-vmcore x86_64 2.12.2-1.fc30 updates 36 k abrt-addon-xorg x86_64 2.12.2-1.fc30 updates 36 k abrt-dbus x86_64 2.12.2-1.fc30 updates 78 k abrt-libs x86_64 2.12.2-1.fc30 updates 43 k abrt-plugin-bodhi x86_64 2.12.2-1.fc30 updates 28 k abrt-retrace-client x86_64 2.12.2-1.fc30 updates 48 k abrt-tui x86_64 2.12.2-1.fc30 updates 36 k augeas-libs x86_64 1.12.0-1.fc30 updates 416 k bind-libs x86_64 32:9.11.9-1.fc30 updates 86 k bind-libs-lite x86_64 32:9.11.9-1.fc30 updates 1.1 M bind-license noarch 32:9.11.9-1.fc30 updates 19 k boost-regex x86_64 1.69.0-8.fc30 updates 287 k cups-libs x86_64 1:2.2.11-3.fc30 updates 253 k dbus-glib x86_64 0.110-5.fc30 updates 115 k dbus-tools x86_64 1:1.12.16-1.fc30 updates 52 k elfutils x86_64 0.176-3.fc30 updates 292 k emacs-filesystem noarch 1:26.2-1.fc30 updates 9.6 k fprintd x86_64 0.9.0-1.fc30 updates 90 k gdb-headless x86_64 8.3-6.fc30 updates 3.4 M glib-networking x86_64 2.60.3-1.fc30 updates 141 k hwdata noarch 0.326-1.fc30 updates 1.5 M libfprint x86_64 1.0-1.fc30 updates 196 k libicu x86_64 63.2-2.fc30 updates 9.0 M libipa_hbac x86_64 2.2.0-3.fc30 updates 41 k libreport x86_64 2.10.1-1.fc30 updates 491 k libreport-cli x86_64 2.10.1-1.fc30 updates 25 k libreport-fedora x86_64 2.10.1-1.fc30 updates 19 k libreport-plugin-bugzilla x86_64 2.10.1-1.fc30 updates 60 k libreport-plugin-kerneloops x86_64 2.10.1-1.fc30 updates 23 k libreport-plugin-logger x86_64 2.10.1-1.fc30 updates 28 k libreport-plugin-systemd-journal x86_64 2.10.1-1.fc30 updates 20 k libreport-plugin-ureport x86_64 2.10.1-1.fc30 updates 33 k libreport-web x86_64 2.10.1-1.fc30 updates 30 k libsmbclient x86_64 2:4.10.6-0.fc30 updates 71 k libsoup x86_64 2.66.2-1.fc30 updates 343 k libwbclient x86_64 2:4.10.6-0.fc30 updates 44 k lz4 x86_64 1.9.1-1.fc30 updates 101 k nss x86_64 3.44.1-1.fc30 updates 636 k nss-softokn x86_64 3.44.1-1.fc30 updates 379 k nss-softokn-freebl x86_64 3.44.1-1.fc30 updates 217 k nss-sysinit x86_64 3.44.1-1.fc30 updates 20 k nss-util x86_64 3.44.1-1.fc30 updates 83 k python3-abrt x86_64 2.12.2-1.fc30 updates 39 k python3-abrt-addon x86_64 2.12.2-1.fc30 updates 24 k python3-libreport x86_64 2.10.1-1.fc30 updates 48 k samba-client-libs x86_64 2:4.10.6-0.fc30 updates 4.8 M samba-common noarch 2:4.10.6-0.fc30 updates 142 k samba-common-libs x86_64 2:4.10.6-0.fc30 updates 98 k samba-libs x86_64 2:4.10.6-0.fc30 updates 103 k satyr x86_64 0.28-1.fc30 updates 108 k squashfs-tools x86_64 4.3-21.fc30 updates 149 k sssd-ad x86_64 2.2.0-3.fc30 updates 166 k sssd-common-pac x86_64 2.2.0-3.fc30 updates 98 k sssd-ipa x86_64 2.2.0-3.fc30 updates 258 k sssd-krb5 x86_64 2.2.0-3.fc30 updates 68 k sssd-krb5-common x86_64 2.2.0-3.fc30 updates 108 k sssd-ldap x86_64 2.2.0-3.fc30 updates 147 k GeoIP x86_64 1.6.12-5.fc30 fedora 110 k GeoIP-GeoLite-data noarch 2018.06-3.fc30 fedora 549 k avahi-libs x86_64 0.7-18.fc30 fedora 59 k crda x86_64 3.18_2018.05.31-6.fc30 fedora 38 k cronie-anacron x86_64 1.5.4-1.fc30 fedora 30 k ctags x86_64 5.8-25.fc30 fedora 158 k cyrus-sasl-gssapi x86_64 2.1.27-0.6rc7.fc30 fedora 24 k desktop-file-utils x86_64 0.23-10.fc30 fedora 65 k dmidecode x86_64 1:3.2-2.fc30 fedora 78 k dracut-network x86_64 049-26.git20181204.fc30 fedora 57 k dracut-squash x86_64 049-26.git20181204.fc30 fedora 12 k fontpackages-filesystem noarch 1.44-24.fc30 fedora 8.2 k fstrm x86_64 0.4.0-3.fc30 fedora 29 k gsettings-desktop-schemas x86_64 3.32.0-1.fc30 fedora 624 k gssproxy x86_64 0.8.0-10.fc30 fedora 104 k hunspell-en-GB noarch 0.20140811.1-14.fc30 fedora 238 k hunspell-en-US noarch 0.20140811.1-14.fc30 fedora 189 k info x86_64 6.6-1.fc30 fedora 212 k iw x86_64 5.0.1-1.fc30 fedora 94 k jitterentropy x86_64 2.1.2-4.fc30 fedora 21 k js-jquery noarch 3.3.1-2.fc30 fedora 174 k kexec-tools x86_64 2.0.19-1.fc30 fedora 413 k keyutils x86_64 1.6-2.fc30 fedora 58 k libbabeltrace x86_64 1.5.6-2.fc30 fedora 184 k libestr x86_64 0.1.9-12.fc30 fedora 24 k libev x86_64 4.25-8.fc30 fedora 45 k libfastjson x86_64 0.99.8-4.fc30 fedora 35 k libipt x86_64 2.0-2.fc30 fedora 51 k libmodman x86_64 2.0.1-19.fc30 fedora 32 k libpkgconf x86_64 1.6.1-1.fc30 fedora 34 k libproxy x86_64 0.4.15-13.fc30 fedora 64 k libsysfs x86_64 2.1.0-26.fc30 fedora 32 k libtar x86_64 1.2.20-17.fc30 fedora 35 k libverto-libev x86_64 0.3.0-7.fc30 fedora 12 k lzo x86_64 2.08-15.fc30 fedora 64 k nspr x86_64 4.21.0-1.fc30 fedora 122 k ntfs-3g x86_64 2:2017.3.23-11.fc30 fedora 257 k numactl-libs x86_64 2.0.12-2.fc30 fedora 27 k passwdqc-lib x86_64 1.3.0-14.fc30 fedora 28 k pciutils-libs x86_64 3.6.2-2.fc30 fedora 38 k pcsc-lite x86_64 1.8.25-1.fc30 fedora 92 k pcsc-lite-ccid x86_64 1.4.30-2.fc30 fedora 307 k pcsc-lite-libs x86_64 1.8.25-1.fc30 fedora 29 k pixman x86_64 0.38.0-1.fc30 fedora 243 k pkgconf x86_64 1.6.1-1.fc30 fedora 38 k pkgconf-m4 noarch 1.6.1-1.fc30 fedora 15 k pkgconf-pkg-config x86_64 1.6.1-1.fc30 fedora 11 k protobuf-c x86_64 1.3.1-2.fc30 fedora 33 k python3-argcomplete noarch 1.9.5-1.fc30 fedora 57 k python3-argh noarch 0.26.1-12.fc30 fedora 58 k python3-augeas noarch 0.5.0-14.fc30 fedora 27 k python3-humanize noarch 0.5.1-16.fc30 fedora 26 k python3-libxml2 x86_64 2.9.9-2.fc30 fedora 223 k python3-systemd x86_64 234-8.fc30 fedora 77 k quota-nls noarch 1:4.04-12.fc30 fedora 76 k rpcbind x86_64 1.2.5-3.fc30 fedora 55 k snappy x86_64 1.1.7-8.fc30 fedora 31 k source-highlight x86_64 3.1.8-24.fc30 fedora 648 k web-assets-filesystem noarch 5-9.fc30 fedora 7.6 k xdg-utils noarch 1.1.3-4.fc30 fedora 75 k xmlrpc-c x86_64 1.51.0-8.fc30 fedora 178 k xmlrpc-c-client x86_64 1.51.0-8.fc30 fedora 28 k Installing weak dependencies: sssd-proxy x86_64 2.2.0-3.fc30 updates 67 k abattis-cantarell-fonts noarch 0.111-2.fc30 fedora 243 k adcli x86_64 0.8.2-3.fc30 fedora 94 k adobe-source-code-pro-fonts noarch 2.030.1.050-6.fc30 fedora 817 k cronie x86_64 1.5.4-1.fc30 fedora 103 k hunspell-en noarch 0.20140811.1-14.fc30 fedora 193 k ntfs-3g-system-compression x86_64 1.0-1.fc30 fedora 26 k python-systemd-doc x86_64 234-8.fc30 fedora 169 k Installing Groups: Standard Transaction Summary ================================================================================ Install 199 Packages Total download size: 57 M Installed size: 202 M
