I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?



  • I see it mentioned in the update notes, but haven't been able to track down where it originates from?



  • I do not believe that there is one yet. I thought that there was no RPM packages yet. If there is, that would be awesome.



  • @scottalanmiller said in I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?:

    I do not believe that there is one yet. I thought that there was no RPM packages yet. If there is, that would be awesome.

    Ok, so at least it's not another cronjob moment on my part!



  • Tagging @jospoortvliet


  • Vendor

    Afaiks not yet. The Fedora ownCloud maintainer hasn't decided if/when he moves to Nextcloud, does both, or what.

    I guess the Nextcloud 10 release and after will show how far ahead we'll pull and at that point it will be easier to make a decision on these things.



  • @jospoortvliet said in I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?:

    Afaiks not yet. The Fedora ownCloud maintainer hasn't decided if/when he moves to Nextcloud, does both, or what.

    I guess the Nextcloud 10 release and after will show how far ahead we'll pull and at that point it will be easier to make a decision on these things.

    What about NextCloud maintaining their own YUM repo in the meantime? Getting in the EPEL is great, but unnecessary, at least for now.

    Until then, are there RPMs to grab?


  • Vendor

    @scottalanmiller at the moment we're not doing any packaging. We work on a VM and a docker image but that's about it, in no small part because we simply focus on development.

    I hope community members will pick this one up, I personally also like to hav RPM's. Of course, we are also overhauling the built in updater, so perhaps that will be good enough soon.



  • You need a VM for Scale! That would be great. (Scale is KVM-Qemu)



  • There is no way that I am going to move production ownCloud systems to NextCloud without a repository option.



  • @JaredBusch said in I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?:

    There is no way that I am going to move production ownCloud systems to NextCloud without a repository option.

    This is definitely very big, admins look for this as a base starting point for consideration. It's not a big thing to create and it is kind of needed that the vendor is testing the deployment process for production consideration. This would go a huge way, I think, to encouraging adoption ASAP.


  • Vendor

    @scottalanmiller said in I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?:

    This is definitely very big, admins look for this as a base starting point for consideration. It's not a big thing to create and it is kind of needed that the vendor is testing the deployment process for production consideration. This would go a huge way, I think, to encouraging adoption ASAP.

    Yeah, I know it is important but it's been a pita in the past with people upset about the packages and it taking more than a full time job internally... So we're hoping there is a better solution by having distribution maintainers pick this up and us help, rather than us doing it ourselves and a lot of folks unhappy about the situation. But this will take time I'm afraid.



  • @jospoortvliet said in I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?:

    @scottalanmiller said in I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?:

    This is definitely very big, admins look for this as a base starting point for consideration. It's not a big thing to create and it is kind of needed that the vendor is testing the deployment process for production consideration. This would go a huge way, I think, to encouraging adoption ASAP.

    Yeah, I know it is important but it's been a pita in the past with people upset about the packages and it taking more than a full time job internally... So we're hoping there is a better solution by having distribution maintainers pick this up and us help, rather than us doing it ourselves and a lot of folks unhappy about the situation. But this will take time I'm afraid.

    I know it is a fair challenge and time suck when other things are going on. My guess is that it is a pretty huge priority, though. You want production enterprise adoption and there needs to be a pretty tightly controlled environment for that. Distributed third party maintainers does not look good to customers.



  • @jospoortvliet said in I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?:

    @scottalanmiller said in I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?:

    This is definitely very big, admins look for this as a base starting point for consideration. It's not a big thing to create and it is kind of needed that the vendor is testing the deployment process for production consideration. This would go a huge way, I think, to encouraging adoption ASAP.

    Yeah, I know it is important but it's been a pita in the past with people upset about the packages and it taking more than a full time job internally... So we're hoping there is a better solution by having distribution maintainers pick this up and us help, rather than us doing it ourselves and a lot of folks unhappy about the situation. But this will take time I'm afraid.

    And this will reduce the oddds that I ever upgrade because how likely is it that I will be able to upgrade from ownCloud 8.2.X or 9.X to whatever version of NextCloud you are on whenever it becomes available via RPM?

    I have one install used by about 70 users with about 80GB consisting of about 35,000 files.



  • @scottalanmiller said in I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?:

    @jospoortvliet said in I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?:

    @scottalanmiller said in I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?:

    This is definitely very big, admins look for this as a base starting point for consideration. It's not a big thing to create and it is kind of needed that the vendor is testing the deployment process for production consideration. This would go a huge way, I think, to encouraging adoption ASAP.

    Yeah, I know it is important but it's been a pita in the past with people upset about the packages and it taking more than a full time job internally... So we're hoping there is a better solution by having distribution maintainers pick this up and us help, rather than us doing it ourselves and a lot of folks unhappy about the situation. But this will take time I'm afraid.

    I know it is a fair challenge and time suck when other things are going on. My guess is that it is a pretty huge priority, though. You want production enterprise adoption and there needs to be a pretty tightly controlled environment for that. Distributed third party maintainers does not look good to customers.

    I should say, third party that isn't the official OS repo, EPEL or similar. And third party for hobby distros like Gentoo or something is fine. But the big three, RHEL/CentOS, Suse and Ubuntu need to be official. You really need that for the customers to see it as ready for use. I know things are early, just trying to suggest a prioritization process here. Even if you only pick one and declare it the "official" for the moment and say that you just can't do more than one while trying to hit the ground running, people will understand. Forcing everyone to one of the big three is okay temporarily just to get the ball rolling. But it seems like having it rolling is worth most anything at this point since otherwise, the product is ready to go.


  • Vendor

    well for customers it is a different story. If somebody paying needs us to provide RPM's, we will. I was talking about on the community side here, fedora, openSUSE, stuff like that.

    RHEL, SLE, those we provide, to customers. That's one way how we get paid 😉



  • @jospoortvliet said in I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?:

    well for customers it is a different story. If somebody paying needs us to provide RPM's, we will. I was talking about on the community side here, fedora, openSUSE, stuff like that.

    RHEL, SLE, those we provide, to customers. That's one way how we get paid 😉

    You are going down the same road of shit as ownCloud already. What happened to everything available to everyone? It is not a direct feature, but seriously.



  • @jospoortvliet said in I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?:

    well for customers it is a different story. If somebody paying needs us to provide RPM's, we will. I was talking about on the community side here, fedora, openSUSE, stuff like that.

    RHEL, SLE, those we provide, to customers. That's one way how we get paid 😉

    While I accept that you need to make money somehow, I'd highly, highly recommend you look for a way to do it that someone else can't make an automated script in less than a day.



  • @jospoortvliet said in I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?:

    well for customers it is a different story. If somebody paying needs us to provide RPM's, we will. I was talking about on the community side here, fedora, openSUSE, stuff like that.

    RHEL, SLE, those we provide, to customers. That's one way how we get paid 😉

    I thought that making money was to be purely on support, not basic functionality, especially stuff like installation. If you want customers, you have to get users first.


  • Vendor

    @travisdh1 said in I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?:

    While I accept that you need to make money somehow, I'd highly, highly recommend you look for a way to do it that someone else can't make an automated script in less than a day.

    Anybody is free to do so, we won't stop them and we'll happily link to their packages on our install page. Hell I'd be happy if it happened. Sadly, in reallity, it is something which costs a lot of time and effort to do it right, which is why we can't find a volunteer to do it and are willing to pay somebody to do it for customers (IF they need it, we haven't encountered one that does).


  • Vendor

    @scottalanmiller said in I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?:

    I thought that making money was to be purely on support, not basic functionality, especially stuff like installation. If you want customers, you have to get users first.

    Well, support can be anything customers need around the base code of a product, right? Nextcloud is already far easier to install than most open source products that aren't open core and have a company behind them - libreoffice online or kolab are hard to install in no small part because the companies behind them make a business of selling access to packages. We don't want to hide releases in multiple tags on github or only support very specific setups with peculiar, patched versions of dependencies, not at all, we're not trying to go down that road.

    To be very open here: we run our company like an open source community with a lot of individual freedom and sharing of information and decision making. We simply don't have anyone on board who wants to do packaging right now. We're hiring, so that might change, but unless we're forced (a customer asks) I don't see it happen soon...

    Of course, we could simply do wrapper packages: only wrap the tarball. No dependencies, nothing. That would work in 95% of the cases and be easy to do and maintain. And that is something a volunteer might be willing to help with, too. If you think that that is good enough, perhaps @travisdh1 is interested in doing the script thing he mentioned. Heck, there's even base packages one can start with from ownCloud, and building can be done on the Open Build Service.



  • @jospoortvliet said in I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?:

    @travisdh1 said in I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?:

    While I accept that you need to make money somehow, I'd highly, highly recommend you look for a way to do it that someone else can't make an automated script in less than a day.

    Anybody is free to do so, we won't stop them and we'll happily link to their packages on our install page. Hell I'd be happy if it happened. Sadly, in reallity, it is something which costs a lot of time and effort to do it right, which is why we can't find a volunteer to do it and are willing to pay somebody to do it for customers (IF they need it, we haven't encountered one that does).

    Only problem there is that by lacking it you are less likely to encounter those customers. If you had it, I would guess that you would see more of them.


  • Vendor

    @scottalanmiller said in I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?:

    Only problem there is that by lacking it you are less likely to encounter those customers. If you had it, I would guess that you would see more of them.

    Hmmm, that is possible, I suppose, and it would be sad. People might not use Nextcloud without packages. Well, how about this: my proposal.

    Input and help welcome 😉



  • @jospoortvliet said in I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?:

    @scottalanmiller said in I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?:

    Only problem there is that by lacking it you are less likely to encounter those customers. If you had it, I would guess that you would see more of them.

    Hmmm, that is possible, I suppose, and it would be sad. People might not use Nextcloud without packages. Well, how about this: my proposal.

    Input and help welcome 😉

    A full package would still be best, IMO. Pick a web server that is widely known (okay, okay, Apache) and stick with it for the initial repo builds... then if you have enough folks screaming for asking nicely for say... an Nginx build, then one could be made.



  • @jospoortvliet said in I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?:

    @scottalanmiller said in I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?:

    Only problem there is that by lacking it you are less likely to encounter those customers. If you had it, I would guess that you would see more of them.

    Hmmm, that is possible, I suppose, and it would be sad. People might not use Nextcloud without packages. Well, how about this: my proposal.

    Input and help welcome 😉

    I'd say you just need 2 scripts. It's been a long time since I looked at packaging anything. I do remember it being easy to get a script written that monitors (was svn at the time) for new releases and automatically rolls everything up. The only maintenance needed for them is updating dependencies when the minimum version of those changes.

    That might be a one time thing someone else would submit the code for you if they finangle the time to do it 😉



  • That's the tough part for sure. A one time install is only so hard, but a regular process of looking for updates and updating automatically is when it gets complicated.


  • Vendor

    yes, those are certainly issues but there are more. Some want Apache, others NGINX. PHP 5, PHP 7. And of course - the distributions want you to split dependencies, put the config files in /etc - and all have different standards on what user the files should belong to, what settings to have in the php.ini file, where the files should be located and so on.

    Even 'just package a tarball' is harder than you think - what is the apache user, do you include an apache config file, and where to extract the tarball (/srv/htdocs/nextcloud? /var/srv/www?)?

    I feel you underestimate it, @travisdh1 but - feel free to prove me wrong 😉



  • @jospoortvliet said in I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?:

    yes, those are certainly issues but there are more. Some want Apache, others NGINX. PHP 5, PHP 7. And of course - the distributions want you to split dependencies, put the config files in /etc - and all have different standards on what user the files should belong to, what settings to have in the php.ini file, where the files should be located and so on.

    Even 'just package a tarball' is harder than you think - what is the apache user, do you include an apache config file, and where to extract the tarball (/srv/htdocs/nextcloud? /var/srv/www?)?

    I feel you underestimate it, @travisdh1 but - feel free to prove me wrong 😉

    Notice I didn't say it's trivial 😃



  • @travisdh1 said in I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?:

    @jospoortvliet said in I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?:

    yes, those are certainly issues but there are more. Some want Apache, others NGINX. PHP 5, PHP 7. And of course - the distributions want you to split dependencies, put the config files in /etc - and all have different standards on what user the files should belong to, what settings to have in the php.ini file, where the files should be located and so on.

    Even 'just package a tarball' is harder than you think - what is the apache user, do you include an apache config file, and where to extract the tarball (/srv/htdocs/nextcloud? /var/srv/www?)?

    I feel you underestimate it, @travisdh1 but - feel free to prove me wrong 😉

    Notice I didn't say it's trivial 😃

    Of course I think @scottalanmiller could do that in his sleep with how he gets "run this script to install" scripts out.


  • Vendor

    @travisdh1 said in I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?:

    Of course I think @scottalanmiller could do that in his sleep with how he gets "run this script to install" scripts out.

    Well, that isn't even up for debate but of course we're talking 'normal humans' here and for those, it's a lot of work.

    😉



  • @jospoortvliet said in I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?:

    @travisdh1 said in I'm not finding the NextCloud yum repository?:

    Of course I think @scottalanmiller could do that in his sleep with how he gets "run this script to install" scripts out.

    Well, that isn't even up for debate but of course we're talking 'normal humans' here and for those, it's a lot of work.

    😉

    I can't do it in my sleep, but his one-liners are close to what's needed to roll things into an .rpm or .deb file, and those two are going to cover the majority of use cases. I will take another look at creating an rpm package at least.


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