NAS or SAM-SD?



  • Hi All,

    I just got tasked with pricing out a NAS or storage server... The starting size is ~10TB and room for growth (how much / how fast the growth will be is not clear right now).

    I'm currently pricing out a Synology Rackstation with 12 x 6TB Drives in RAID 10.

    Are the Synology NAS systems good for a build that "big"?

    I haven't looked at QNAP for one that large yet, but we have a 2Bay QNAP that runs pretty good, so they are next on my list to check.

    After some thinking, I was wondering if it might not be more economical to build a SAM-SD for this...



  • You can certainly use a Synology for this 10 - 196TB I think is what Synology scales up to.

    The units are pretty cheaply priced as well.


  • Service Provider

    What do you need for recovery time for that box if there is a hardware fault.

    Also, I bet you can get a better performing server chassis for that money.

    The trade off is, time to build and configure a server, versus an out of the box Synology with a higher risk factor.


  • Vendor

    if you don't pay for electricity from your own pocket just get R5xx from xByte and load FreeBSD on it (or Linux?) with ZFS

    don't do syno or netgear if yo plan more than 4 spindles


  • Service Provider

    Synology vs. QNAP. These aren't the same category of devices and the QNAP issues are around support, not the hardware, so not amount of QNAP observation will showcase why they shouldn't be mentioned in a business setting. Synology and ReadyNAS are the players here in the business space, not QNAP.



  • I think I started a #NeverQNAP hashtag somewhere. Really trying to get it to catch on.


  • Service Provider

    Once you get into rackmount, SAM-SD are faster, cheaper and more reliable than anything else on the market. Often by a wide margin.

    A commercial NAS' advantages are purely around the reduction of your effort and integrated single point of contact support at the tradeoff of slower, less reliable and less reliable.



  • How much throughput are you looking at? One of the advantages to a SAM-SD is that you can throw a few 10Gb modules into the chassis.



  • Would something like Exablocks fit the bill? It would probably be a bit more expensive but this seems the exact use case for it.


  • Service Provider

    @coliver said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    How much throughput are you looking at? One of the advantages to a SAM-SD is that you can throw a few 10Gb modules into the chassis.

    @coliver said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    How much throughput are you looking at? One of the advantages to a SAM-SD is that you can throw a few 10Gb modules into the chassis.

    Synology and ReadyNAS will both do 10GigE as well. SAM-SD modules will be cheaper, of course, and could do 40GigE, Fibre Channel or Infiniband, too. But 10GigE is available on pretty much any business unit today.


  • Service Provider

    @coliver said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    Would something like Exablocks fit the bill? It would probably be a bit more expensive but this seems the exact use case for it.

    Might. Heavy base price and design is built around having multiple units and a larger storage capacity size by rather a bit.



  • Benefits of SAM-SD aside, and speaking directly to out of box, single point of contact vendors... if you're talking about Synology being able to handle a "big" setup as you called it, their products are great from top to bottom. I installed [one of these](link url) and it was great. I did 48TB at the time. Also Exablox as @coliver mentioned.



  • Is a SAM-SD a Software Defined Network that is Scott Alan Miller compliant?

    EDIT: https://mangolassi.it/topic/6231/what-is-a-sam-sd


  • Service Provider

    @wirestyle22 said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    Is a SAM-SD a Software Defined Network that is Scott Alan Miller compliant?

    EDIT: https://mangolassi.it/topic/6231/what-is-a-sam-sd

    You found the link :) I don't like the term software defined in conjunction with the SAM-SD because it implies a weird association with NAS and hardware that does not exist. Basically NAS and SAN are just the same as SAM-SD but possibly without the "enterprise" requirement (even ReadyNAS and Synology aren't compliant there) and being appliances instead of set up by the IT department. All an enterprise NAS is is a SAM-SD that someone built as a black box for you, but it is no more or less "software defined", all NAS are servers in the same way.



  • @scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @wirestyle22 said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    Is a SAM-SD a Software Defined Network that is Scott Alan Miller compliant?

    EDIT: https://mangolassi.it/topic/6231/what-is-a-sam-sd

    All an enterprise NAS is is a SAM-SD that someone built as a black box for you

    If someone were to build a white box, or maybe a green box, would that still be compliant?



  • @BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @wirestyle22 said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    Is a SAM-SD a Software Defined Network that is Scott Alan Miller compliant?

    EDIT: https://mangolassi.it/topic/6231/what-is-a-sam-sd

    All an enterprise NAS is is a SAM-SD that someone built as a black box for you

    If someone were to build a white box, or maybe a green box, would that still be compliant?

    or these boxes...

    0_1467816644388_1.jpg

    0_1467816652336_2.jpg



  • @Breffni-Potter said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    What do you need for recovery time for that box if there is a hardware fault.

    Also, I bet you can get a better performing server chassis for that money.

    The trade off is, time to build and configure a server, versus an out of the box Synology with a higher risk factor.

    This is only going to be for a Photo Archive, so recovery time is not a huge concern as far as I am aware.

    Building a server is easy. :-)



  • @KOOLER said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    if you don't pay for electricity from your own pocket just get R5xx from xByte and load FreeBSD on it (or Linux?) with ZFS

    don't do syno or netgear if yo plan more than 4 spindles

    That's one of the reasons I started this thread. I kinda figured that was going to be the way to go.


  • Service Provider

    @BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @wirestyle22 said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    Is a SAM-SD a Software Defined Network that is Scott Alan Miller compliant?

    EDIT: https://mangolassi.it/topic/6231/what-is-a-sam-sd

    All an enterprise NAS is is a SAM-SD that someone built as a black box for you

    If someone were to build a white box, or maybe a green box, would that still be compliant?

    A white box device cannot be a NAS. Blackbox is part of the definition of a NAS.

    White boxes cannot be enterprise (no support) so doesn't qualify as SAM-SD. That would just be a hobby class file server.

    SAM-SD still requires enterprise hardware and support, but does not allow for black boxing as that is what it replaces.


  • Service Provider

    @dafyre said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @Breffni-Potter said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    What do you need for recovery time for that box if there is a hardware fault.

    Also, I bet you can get a better performing server chassis for that money.

    The trade off is, time to build and configure a server, versus an out of the box Synology with a higher risk factor.

    This is only going to be for a Photo Archive, so recovery time is not a huge concern as far as I am aware.

    Building a server is easy. :-)

    Not for people who buy NAS. People buy NAS because they believe that building or managing a super generic file server is somehow super hard. That's why NAS exists. You would not believe how many people think that "right click and say 'share' is hard."



  • @BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @wirestyle22 said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    Is a SAM-SD a Software Defined Network that is Scott Alan Miller compliant?

    EDIT: https://mangolassi.it/topic/6231/what-is-a-sam-sd

    All an enterprise NAS is is a SAM-SD that someone built as a black box for you

    If someone were to build a white box, or maybe a green box, would that still be compliant?

    or these boxes...

    0_1467816644388_1.jpg

    0_1467816652336_2.jpg

    This is what my build will look like when I am done!


  • Service Provider

    @dafyre said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @KOOLER said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    if you don't pay for electricity from your own pocket just get R5xx from xByte and load FreeBSD on it (or Linux?) with ZFS

    don't do syno or netgear if yo plan more than 4 spindles

    That's one of the reasons I started this thread. I kinda figured that was going to be the way to go.

    The R510 is really awesome as a storage unit. The power of later units is really lost so no reason to pay for more.



  • @scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @wirestyle22 said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    Is a SAM-SD a Software Defined Network that is Scott Alan Miller compliant?

    EDIT: https://mangolassi.it/topic/6231/what-is-a-sam-sd

    All an enterprise NAS is is a SAM-SD that someone built as a black box for you

    If someone were to build a white box, or maybe a green box, would that still be compliant?

    A white box device cannot be a NAS. Blackbox is part of the definition of a NAS.

    White boxes cannot be enterprise (no support) so doesn't qualify as SAM-SD. That would just be a hobby class file server.

    SAM-SD still requires enterprise hardware and support, but does not allow for black boxing as that is what it replaces.

    So I'm 100% clear (my post was sarcasm if you didn't pick up on that, but there was a good point about white boxes I'll take note of), black boxes have parts that individually have enterprise support? Your RAID controller has support from one vendor, the main board has support from another vendor, and so on. Whereas a white box has zero support whatsoever?



  • @BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @wirestyle22 said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    Is a SAM-SD a Software Defined Network that is Scott Alan Miller compliant?

    EDIT: https://mangolassi.it/topic/6231/what-is-a-sam-sd

    All an enterprise NAS is is a SAM-SD that someone built as a black box for you

    If someone were to build a white box, or maybe a green box, would that still be compliant?

    A white box device cannot be a NAS. Blackbox is part of the definition of a NAS.

    White boxes cannot be enterprise (no support) so doesn't qualify as SAM-SD. That would just be a hobby class file server.

    SAM-SD still requires enterprise hardware and support, but does not allow for black boxing as that is what it replaces.

    So I'm 100% clear (my post was sarcasm if you didn't pick up on that, but there was a good point about white boxes I'll take note of), black boxes have parts that individually have enterprise support? Your RAID controller has support from one vendor, the main board has support from another vendor, and so on. Whereas a white box has zero support whatsoever?

    You'll rarely get enterprise support from a RAID card vendor. If you have an issue and request a replacement it can take weeks to get them. Whereas buying from HP or Dell you can get parts in as little as 4 hours.


  • Service Provider

    @BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @wirestyle22 said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    Is a SAM-SD a Software Defined Network that is Scott Alan Miller compliant?

    EDIT: https://mangolassi.it/topic/6231/what-is-a-sam-sd

    All an enterprise NAS is is a SAM-SD that someone built as a black box for you

    If someone were to build a white box, or maybe a green box, would that still be compliant?

    A white box device cannot be a NAS. Blackbox is part of the definition of a NAS.

    White boxes cannot be enterprise (no support) so doesn't qualify as SAM-SD. That would just be a hobby class file server.

    SAM-SD still requires enterprise hardware and support, but does not allow for black boxing as that is what it replaces.

    So I'm 100% clear (my post was sarcasm if you didn't pick up on that, but there was a good point about white boxes I'll take note of), black boxes have parts that individually have enterprise support? Your RAID controller has support from one vendor, the main board has support from another vendor, and so on. Whereas a white box has zero support whatsoever?

    @BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @wirestyle22 said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    Is a SAM-SD a Software Defined Network that is Scott Alan Miller compliant?

    EDIT: https://mangolassi.it/topic/6231/what-is-a-sam-sd

    All an enterprise NAS is is a SAM-SD that someone built as a black box for you

    If someone were to build a white box, or maybe a green box, would that still be compliant?

    A white box device cannot be a NAS. Blackbox is part of the definition of a NAS.

    White boxes cannot be enterprise (no support) so doesn't qualify as SAM-SD. That would just be a hobby class file server.

    SAM-SD still requires enterprise hardware and support, but does not allow for black boxing as that is what it replaces.

    So I'm 100% clear (my post was sarcasm if you didn't pick up on that, but there was a good point about white boxes I'll take note of), black boxes have parts that individually have enterprise support? Your RAID controller has support from one vendor, the main board has support from another vendor, and so on. Whereas a white box has zero support whatsoever?

    Black box by definition has to have a single point of support because you don't know what components it has - hence black box. You can't support a black box, what's under the hood is abstracted from you.

    When you buy a black box you commit 100% to relying on external support to tell you everything. That's the benefit, and the caveat, of appliances (aka black boxes.)

    You can basically use the terms appliance or black box interchangeably.



  • The main concern is for this to be a place for a department to store photos... One place... not 10 individual 1TB drives.

    I've already done some price checking, and building a SAM-SD comes in at about half the price of a Synology for similar sizes going by straight up list prices... and this includes the 3 year NBD parts warranty from xByte.


  • Service Provider

    @coliver said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @wirestyle22 said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    Is a SAM-SD a Software Defined Network that is Scott Alan Miller compliant?

    EDIT: https://mangolassi.it/topic/6231/what-is-a-sam-sd

    All an enterprise NAS is is a SAM-SD that someone built as a black box for you

    If someone were to build a white box, or maybe a green box, would that still be compliant?

    A white box device cannot be a NAS. Blackbox is part of the definition of a NAS.

    White boxes cannot be enterprise (no support) so doesn't qualify as SAM-SD. That would just be a hobby class file server.

    SAM-SD still requires enterprise hardware and support, but does not allow for black boxing as that is what it replaces.

    So I'm 100% clear (my post was sarcasm if you didn't pick up on that, but there was a good point about white boxes I'll take note of), black boxes have parts that individually have enterprise support? Your RAID controller has support from one vendor, the main board has support from another vendor, and so on. Whereas a white box has zero support whatsoever?

    You'll rarely get enterprise support from a RAID card vendor. If you have an issue and request a replacement it can take weeks to get them. Whereas buying from HP or Dell you can get parts in as little as 4 hours.

    FAR less than four hours. I can get replacement parts in as little as fifteen minutes installed with HP.


  • Service Provider

    @dafyre said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    The main concern is for this to be a place for a department to store photos... One place... not 10 individual 1TB drives.

    I've already done some price checking, and building a SAM-SD comes in at about half the price of a Synology for similar sizes going by straight up list prices... and this includes the 3 year NBD parts warranty from xByte.

    For such a tiny project, why not get a two bay Synology and two RAID 10 drives in RAID 1. Or a four bay with four 6TB drives in RAID 10. These will be really cheap, cheaper than you can do a SAM-SD.


  • Service Provider

    The limitation on a SAM-SD is that you need enterprise gear, and enterprise gear has costs associated with it. But at 10TB you are not yet into the category of using rack mount gear unless reliability warrants it. And for photo storage, why go even that far?

    Desktop units, because they are non-enterprise class, go cheaper than SAM-SDs can go because only non-enterprise gear has that form factor. So SMB class Synology or ReadyNAS are your cost performers here.



  • @scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @wirestyle22 said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    Is a SAM-SD a Software Defined Network that is Scott Alan Miller compliant?

    EDIT: https://mangolassi.it/topic/6231/what-is-a-sam-sd

    All an enterprise NAS is is a SAM-SD that someone built as a black box for you

    If someone were to build a white box, or maybe a green box, would that still be compliant?

    A white box device cannot be a NAS. Blackbox is part of the definition of a NAS.

    White boxes cannot be enterprise (no support) so doesn't qualify as SAM-SD. That would just be a hobby class file server.

    SAM-SD still requires enterprise hardware and support, but does not allow for black boxing as that is what it replaces.

    So I'm 100% clear (my post was sarcasm if you didn't pick up on that, but there was a good point about white boxes I'll take note of), black boxes have parts that individually have enterprise support? Your RAID controller has support from one vendor, the main board has support from another vendor, and so on. Whereas a white box has zero support whatsoever?

    @BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @BBigford said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @scottalanmiller said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    @wirestyle22 said in NAS or SAM-SD?:

    Is a SAM-SD a Software Defined Network that is Scott Alan Miller compliant?

    EDIT: https://mangolassi.it/topic/6231/what-is-a-sam-sd

    All an enterprise NAS is is a SAM-SD that someone built as a black box for you

    If someone were to build a white box, or maybe a green box, would that still be compliant?

    A white box device cannot be a NAS. Blackbox is part of the definition of a NAS.

    White boxes cannot be enterprise (no support) so doesn't qualify as SAM-SD. That would just be a hobby class file server.

    SAM-SD still requires enterprise hardware and support, but does not allow for black boxing as that is what it replaces.

    So I'm 100% clear (my post was sarcasm if you didn't pick up on that, but there was a good point about white boxes I'll take note of), black boxes have parts that individually have enterprise support? Your RAID controller has support from one vendor, the main board has support from another vendor, and so on. Whereas a white box has zero support whatsoever?

    Black box by definition has to have a single point of support because you don't know what components it has - hence black box. You can't support a black box, what's under the hood is abstracted from you.

    When you buy a black box you commit 100% to relying on external support to tell you everything. That's the benefit, and the caveat, of appliances (aka black boxes.)

    You can basically use the terms appliance or black box interchangeably.

    Oh haha, I read that completely backwards... You were saying a black box is something that someone built FOR you, not that you built yourself. So if everything is abstract to you in a black box, how does a white box not fit into SAM-SD? You build it yourself for better performance and maybe less money, you have support on individual parts should they fail...

    I understand that since each part has it's own vendor, and not a single point, that is not SAM-SD compliant... but if a Synology is a black box, and SAM-SD is a counter part (white box) then how do you get what is essentially a white box with a single point of contact for support?


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