Is it bashing to ask what other were thinking



  • Is it bashing to ask what someone else was thinking when they made the wrong decision and didn't know about it ever until it failed? @Jstear just joined Yesterday and says he's seen 10 topics of us bashing Spiceworks for the posts made there.

    Yet I don't feel that we've bashed, we've discussed their topics, and how to address the issues / initially configure the issues.

    @Jstear can you provide some samples of what you've seen so we can discuss.



  • The post I made the comment on, you called the guy dense and I took it as you demeaning the guy for making a mistake. I'll have to find the other posts to make you aware, maybe they aren't meant to be taken the way I'm taking them. I'm just letting you know how I see it as a newcomer to this community. I would say the same if it were coming from any other community.



  • I agree, I did call the person dense.

    Because of the terms of what he's described as the issue. He himself said.

    "I had a VMWAre Evaluation version which expired, my VMs went off because of power outage and now i cant start them because i get a license expiration error if i try to start it."

    Which to me means he should know that an evaluation will expire at some point, prior to which a decision must be made. It does come off as mean, true.

    But in IT honesty is better upfront, compared to playing dumb. If the OP configured this system, this conversation should've been had with management that the software must be purchased, and therefore he would never be in this situation.


  • Service Provider

    I think that approach matters a lot. The phrase "what were they thinking" CAN sound benign but is also used as a way to say "what an idiot you are."

    The same question posed this way would illicit a different feeling and discussion:

    "What Thought Processes May Have Resulted in This Scenario"



  • @Jstear said in Is it bashing to ask what other were thinking:

    The post I made the comment on, you called the guy dense and I took it as you demeaning the guy for making a mistake. I'll have to find the other posts to make you aware, maybe they aren't meant to be taken the way I'm taking them. I'm just letting you know how I see it as a newcomer to this community. I would say the same if it were coming from any other community.

    I have to side with Jester here - I feel like you've been kinda on a crusade against people over at SW lately.

    Mostly it's around wording issues like Jester mentioned.

    If I was new and came here and found those posts, I'm not sure I'd stick around. It's one thing to bring them to attention here so people here will go there and post - man it would be so much better if we could just get them to post here as well, but SW won't be having that.


  • Service Provider

    @Dashrender said in Is it bashing to ask what other were thinking:

    @Jstear said in Is it bashing to ask what other were thinking:

    The post I made the comment on, you called the guy dense and I took it as you demeaning the guy for making a mistake. I'll have to find the other posts to make you aware, maybe they aren't meant to be taken the way I'm taking them. I'm just letting you know how I see it as a newcomer to this community. I would say the same if it were coming from any other community.

    I have to side with Jester here - I feel like you've been kinda on a crusade against people over at SW lately.

    Mostly it's around wording issues like Jester mentioned.

    If I was new and came here and found those posts, I'm not sure I'd stick around. It's one thing to bring them to attention here so people here will go there and post - man it would be so much better if we could just get them to post here as well, but SW won't be having that.

    This is especially an issue when those users are often invited here at the exact same moment that these threads about them arise. Which happens almost every time.



  • @DustinB3403 said in Is it bashing to ask what other were thinking:

    I agree, I did call the person dense.

    Because of the terms of what he's described as the issue. He himself said.

    "I had a VMWAre Evaluation version which expired, my VMs went off because of power outage and now i cant start them because i get a license expiration error if i try to start it."

    Which to me means he should know that an evaluation will expire at some point, prior to which a decision must be made. It does come off as mean, true.

    But in IT honesty is better upfront, compared to playing dumb. If the OP configured this system, this conversation should've been had with management that the software must be purchased, and therefore he would never be in this situation.

    But we all know for hundreds/thousands/tens of thousands of posts over there that this process just doesn't take place. We all aren't @scottalanmiller, we need to learn from somewhere and since college is nearly clearly a complete waste we often find ourselves stumbling around until we find a good community to join that we grow with each other.


  • Service Provider

    Yeah I gotta say. It needs to be reduced. If you are going to have that opinion about X topic. Why not post it on the source thread?



  • @Dashrender I don't know if I'm on a crusade, we do have the "burned by" topic, which is clearly for educational purposes. And there has been a rash of those posted on Spiceworks to which I've posted to that topic.

    If I'm bashing, by all means call me out for it.

    I personally won't be offended, but if there are situations in which 15 minutes of thought prevents hours or days or weeks of headaches I'll call it out, and recommend a solution in a not so subtle way.


  • Service Provider

    In addition to the wording, consider this technique....

    Get an IM to the OP ready with something like this:

    "I had some additional questions about how you arrived in the situation that you found yourself in and want to understand what chain of events or decision making process led to this scenario playing out as it did."

    Then post your question on ML as best as you can. Then grab the link and send it to the OP for their input.

    If the OP isn't invited to the discussion, it behaves like a semi-private group talking behind their back (even though it is in the open.) And inviting them is the only reasonable way to get good insight, either way. And by doing so you mentally know every time that the OP will see what you write which should, in theory, cause you to think differently about how a question is phrased or approached.


  • Service Provider

    @Dashrender said in Is it bashing to ask what other were thinking:

    But we all know for hundreds/thousands/tens of thousands of posts over there that this process just doesn't take place. We all aren't @scottalanmiller, we need to learn from somewhere and since college is nearly clearly a complete waste we often find ourselves stumbling around until we find a good community to join that we grow with each other.

    This wouldn't be an issue of SW had an awesome search feature like ML ha.... oh dammit.



  • So to me if discussing the thread, in a separate (not so delete happy forum) is essentially bad, according to you if and only if the person doesn't know it's being discussed?

    So the real simple solution is "Hey OP I'm discussing your thread here, join in if you wish"



  • @DustinB3403 If you have a problem about posts getting deleted for no reason/questionably over there, let me know. Discussions go into most deletions.



  • @Jstear said in Is it bashing to ask what other were thinking:

    @DustinB3403 If you have a problem about posts getting deleted for no reason/questionably over there, let me know. Discussions go into most deletions.

    I would have to say I've had completely honest and blunt but eye-opening replies to others topics be deleted for "not being friendly"

    Just the other day in fact.

    Here is a screen grab of the email, and here is a link to the article of the OP who wants samples of Ransomware to show his superiors how awful Ransomware is. 0_1467130640925_chrome_2016-06-28_12-16-47.png


  • Service Provider

    @DustinB3403 said in Is it bashing to ask what other were thinking:

    So to me if discussing the thread, in a separate (not so delete happy forum) is essentially bad, according to you if and only if the person doesn't know it's being discussed?

    So the real simple solution is "Hey OP I'm discussing your thread here, join in if you wish"

    I think that that is likely to solve nearly all problems. In another community we found that private discussions that didn't include the OP tended to devolve due to that fact. It because a bunch of speculation in private and not really very useful. Inviting the OP both allows for the discussion to be more productive. But it also changes how humans will mentally think about what they are saying. We aren't talking about "someone we read about in the news" but having a conversation with a fellow IT pro.



  • The burnt by topic should be a warning. Not a "here's another dense idiot who should know better. We don't know enough about the people to know if they should know better.

    I've had a lot of my previous actions (and many more to still go) be shattered by participating here and SW. I've learned a lot, and continue to learn.


  • Service Provider

    @Dashrender said in Is it bashing to ask what other were thinking:

    The burnt by topic should be a warning.

    And even less of a warning but a collection of evidence. People often claim that best practices, rules of thumb or math on risk are silly or pointless. But evidence has shown for a long time that these things are best practices or whatever for a reason. Collecting that in a thread is useful for when people claim that "this doesn't actually happen to anyone."



  • @DustinB3403 your comments here and on SW come across to me as if people making poor choices is a personal affront to you, and you have a responsibility to correct them. I've become very choosy about what topics I post in on any of these forums. It is a survival/sanity mechanism that I've needed to develop. Otherwise the unwise or uneducated will drag me down.



  • Then it becomes even more important to not only post a link to the other thread, but also to spell out what they did, what best practice they should have followed so future searchers can find the thread useful.



  • @Kelly said in Is it bashing to ask what other were thinking:

    @DustinB3403 your comments here and on SW come across to me as if people making poor choices is a personal affront to you, and you have a responsibility to correct them. I've become very choosy about what topics I post in on any of these forums. It is a survival/sanity mechanism that I've needed to develop. Otherwise the unwise or uneducated will drag me down.

    The topics posted here or on SW, that are asking for advice on how to address a problem are as much my responsibility to assist with as they are with anyone.

    Just because I respond bluntly, and don't sugarcoat it means that I'm affronted by the person asking for advice? I don't see the correlation.


  • Service Provider

    @Dashrender said in Is it bashing to ask what other were thinking:

    Then it becomes even more important to not only post a link to the other thread, but also to spell out what they did, what best practice they should have followed so future searchers can find the thread useful.

    I think that that normally is done or is overwhelmingly obvious. If not, definitely ask. Normally it tends to be RAID 5 winchesters, IPOD, etc.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Is it bashing to ask what other were thinking:

    @Dashrender said in Is it bashing to ask what other were thinking:

    Then it becomes even more important to not only post a link to the other thread, but also to spell out what they did, what best practice they should have followed so future searchers can find the thread useful.

    I think that that normally is done or is overwhelmingly obvious. If not, definitely ask. Normally it tends to be RAID 5 winchesters, IPOD, etc.

    I've had replies to brand new topics, (and I wont go digging for the emails) that have been as quickly bashed for assuming it was an IPOD in design with as innocent a question of: "Can you describe your setup a bit more, as this sounds like it might be an IPOD?"

    I tend to try and be kind, but I don't coat it with butter and sugar.


  • Service Provider

    @DustinB3403 said in Is it bashing to ask what other were thinking:

    Just because I respond bluntly, and don't sugarcoat it means that I'm affronted by the person asking for advice? I don't see the correlation.

    I agree. But in a case like this one, because the OP isn't here asking "what were they thinking" doesn't really make it blunt or fact finding. Sure we can hypothesize but that's pretty pointless in a scenario like this. If you think that there is something valuable to be gleaned, it would require the OP to participate.



  • @DustinB3403 said in Is it bashing to ask what other were thinking:

    @Kelly said in Is it bashing to ask what other were thinking:

    @DustinB3403 your comments here and on SW come across to me as if people making poor choices is a personal affront to you, and you have a responsibility to correct them. I've become very choosy about what topics I post in on any of these forums. It is a survival/sanity mechanism that I've needed to develop. Otherwise the unwise or uneducated will drag me down.

    The topics posted here or on SW, that are asking for advice on how to address a problem are as much my responsibility to assist with as they are with anyone.

    Just because I respond bluntly, and don't sugarcoat it means that I'm affronted by the person asking for advice? I don't see the correlation.

    I have no idea if you're affronted. I only have the text of your posts here and there to go on. It is my surmise based on that, and may be incorrect. It might be enlightening if you were to ask how many on here get the same sense or not.


  • Service Provider

    @DustinB3403 said in Is it bashing to ask what other were thinking:

    @scottalanmiller said in Is it bashing to ask what other were thinking:

    @Dashrender said in Is it bashing to ask what other were thinking:

    Then it becomes even more important to not only post a link to the other thread, but also to spell out what they did, what best practice they should have followed so future searchers can find the thread useful.

    I think that that normally is done or is overwhelmingly obvious. If not, definitely ask. Normally it tends to be RAID 5 winchesters, IPOD, etc.

    I've had replies to brand new topics, (and I wont go digging for the emails) that have been as quickly bashed for assuming it was an IPOD in design with as innocent a question of: "Can you describe your setup a bit more, as this sounds like it might be an IPOD?"

    I tend to try and be kind, but I don't coat it with butter and sugar.

    In a case like that, if in question, you could leave out the IPOD bit. Start with the assumption that it is not, and only assume that it is when it turns out to be.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Is it bashing to ask what other were thinking:

    @DustinB3403 said in Is it bashing to ask what other were thinking:

    @scottalanmiller said in Is it bashing to ask what other were thinking:

    @Dashrender said in Is it bashing to ask what other were thinking:

    Then it becomes even more important to not only post a link to the other thread, but also to spell out what they did, what best practice they should have followed so future searchers can find the thread useful.

    I think that that normally is done or is overwhelmingly obvious. If not, definitely ask. Normally it tends to be RAID 5 winchesters, IPOD, etc.

    I've had replies to brand new topics, (and I wont go digging for the emails) that have been as quickly bashed for assuming it was an IPOD in design with as innocent a question of: "Can you describe your setup a bit more, as this sounds like it might be an IPOD?"

    I tend to try and be kind, but I don't coat it with butter and sugar.

    In a case like that, if in question, you could leave out the IPOD bit. Start with the assumption that it is not, and only assume that it is when it turns out to be.

    Is that question abusive in someway? To even ask it seems like a perfectly valid question with the way the OP was posted.



  • @DustinB3403 Honestly, it was rude and unfriendly. I see no issues with that deletion.



  • @Jstear said in Is it bashing to ask what other were thinking:

    @DustinB3403 Honestly, it was rude and unfriendly. I see no issues with that deletion.

    Rude and unfriendly, sure I agree, but the other 4 pages of replies telling the OP that he was completely out of the realm of reason with the discussion needed to be called out for it.

    Look at the other post there, even my own. I was perfectly calm and collected. It's when the topic devolved into "I need to show my superiors because they don't believe what anyone else says"

    That the topic gets into the "OK lets be blunt here "YOU"RE an ass, and take a step back and think about it rationally"

    No offense meant to you @Jstear.


  • Service Provider

    @DustinB3403 said in Is it bashing to ask what other were thinking:

    @scottalanmiller said in Is it bashing to ask what other were thinking:

    @DustinB3403 said in Is it bashing to ask what other were thinking:

    @scottalanmiller said in Is it bashing to ask what other were thinking:

    @Dashrender said in Is it bashing to ask what other were thinking:

    Then it becomes even more important to not only post a link to the other thread, but also to spell out what they did, what best practice they should have followed so future searchers can find the thread useful.

    I think that that normally is done or is overwhelmingly obvious. If not, definitely ask. Normally it tends to be RAID 5 winchesters, IPOD, etc.

    I've had replies to brand new topics, (and I wont go digging for the emails) that have been as quickly bashed for assuming it was an IPOD in design with as innocent a question of: "Can you describe your setup a bit more, as this sounds like it might be an IPOD?"

    I tend to try and be kind, but I don't coat it with butter and sugar.

    In a case like that, if in question, you could leave out the IPOD bit. Start with the assumption that it is not, and only assume that it is when it turns out to be.

    Is that question abusive in someway? To even ask it seems like a perfectly valid question with the way the OP was posted.

    It's suggestive. It says that it "sounds like" something very bad. No need for that. You need to know the architecture either way? Leave it out. You get the same clarification without any way for someone to complain. Sure, you don't SAY that it is an IPOD, but you say that it sounds like one. It's just unnecessary but puts people on the defensive.

    Try this technique... always assume that the OP is correct. Give the benefit of the doubt. That's makes you "never wrong." Always clarify when needed, but just assume that they are not doing something foolish. That way, if they do something smart and you didn't know, you gave them credit for it. If they did something foolish, it isn't your fault in any way either way.



  • To take one of my grandmother's famous phrases and apply it here: IT's not what you say but how you say it.

    I do not keep a tight standard on all of you here for moderation, which you all know. You are all adults. I tend to take the suck it up buttercup philosophy ( in other words if you can't deal with someone being mean.....). Though honestly that isn't always the best course.

    You guys all do tend to be a bit abrasive at times when you are sure you a smarter than someone else.... It's a IT trait (or Aspie trait in the case of some of you).



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