Just How Hard is University to Overcome



  • @scottalanmiller

    Did someone hijack your account?

    Why do you keep saying college.

    It's throwing me off, looks suspicious.


  • Service Provider

    @tirendir said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:

    It would naturally make sense too that those with higher innate intelligence are more likely to be able to self-teach more content more quickly than those with less, but higher IQ would then also by the same theory penalize those people even more in the University setting.

    That's a great point, and I agree. The more capable you are, the more university penalizes you. The more your time is wasted, the more classes are boring, the less the professor has benefits for you, the more the classroom discussions are wasted, etc. University benefits are greatest to those that struggle the most. One of the reasons that I feel society promotes university is that it is a "leveler" making more people fit in the bell curve by making the bottom look not so bad and the top look not so good.

    Large industry wants to hire the middle, the college system makes a bigger middle. It providers more worker bees at lower cost for the system.


  • Service Provider

    @brrabill said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:

    So is your number of $38K for HS higher because in theory HS might garner more salary?

    My number is from the Department of Labor. I believe only HS grads are included, not drop outs, so that might be the factor.


  • Service Provider

    Here is an example of where the stats are really hard to make useful...

    Take high school level home schoolers. There are two primary groups that do this, one is the group that doesn't trust education and wants their kids to not be exposed to the school system. Mostly this is the religious group and mostly they do it to shield kids from information.

    The other, also distrusting the education system, feel that the education system is too "teach to the middle" or doesn't specialize enough or is just too "easy" and slow so teach their kids at home so that they can move faster, focus on topics of relevance, learn more, etc.

    Statistically, there is no reasonable means of determining which group is which as they are just "homeschoolers". But it's clear to see that one group is likely to vastly outperform the market and the other is likely to vastly under-perform. But we have no means of proving who came from which group.

    Same with college skippers or even high school drop outs. The top performers, those flying in their private jets and making ten figure salaries, are lost in a sea of people who just couldn't handle going to PE class or whatever. Those that struggle with the material and those bored with how uninformed their teachers are get statistically put together.

    But in looking at your career and the advantage of education for a career, we know only the high performing group is the one we are interested in the stats on. But have no reasonable means to acquire those stats.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:

    Does college have value? yes and know.

    There's the T-shirt people! 🙂 Not what SAM intended I'm sure, but...


  • Service Provider

    @worden2 said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:

    @scottalanmiller said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:

    Does college have value? yes and know.

    There's the T-shirt people! 🙂 Not what SAM intended I'm sure, but...

    LOL



  • Good time for this...

    https://9gag.com/gag/aEB8YNO


  • Service Provider

    aXv5VBP_460s_v1.jpg


  • Service Provider

    0_1518504303787_18A466EF-3A86-4505-8A86-7ED5F68477F5.jpeg



  • @scottalanmiller

    So the other two-thirds did?



  • That tells me you're more likely to be a billionaire if you graduated college.


  • Service Provider

    @tim_g I don't think one or the other is a good predictor of an outcome. It just shows there isn't a strong correlation.



  • @mike-davis said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:

    @tim_g I don't think one or the other is a good predictor of an outcome. It just shows there isn't a strong correlation.

    Well it says that more than half (60%) of the world's billionaires did graduate college.

    I do realize that statistic by itself is inconclusive, but it still shows that your more likely to be a billionaire if you graduate college.

    It is a meme... so it may not even be true. I never verified it.



  • @tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:

    @mike-davis said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:

    @tim_g I don't think one or the other is a good predictor of an outcome. It just shows there isn't a strong correlation.

    Well it says that more than half (60%) of the world's billionaires did graduate college.

    I do realize that statistic by itself is inconclusive, but it still shows that your more likely to be a billionaire if you graduate college.

    It is a meme... so it may not even be true. I never verified it.

    Or if you are a billionaire, you more than likely have the privilege to go to college as it is already paid for by your family.



  • @irj said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:

    @tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:

    @mike-davis said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:

    @tim_g I don't think one or the other is a good predictor of an outcome. It just shows there isn't a strong correlation.

    Well it says that more than half (60%) of the world's billionaires did graduate college.

    I do realize that statistic by itself is inconclusive, but it still shows that your more likely to be a billionaire if you graduate college.

    It is a meme... so it may not even be true. I never verified it.

    Or if you are a billionaire, you more than likely have the privilege to go to college as it is already paid for by your family.

    Anyone can go to college. The poorer you are the more likely it is to be free... where you even get money for gas and such.

    The privilege part is whether or not you have the means to go to college... such as a car, time, ability to put kids in child care so you can go, live in a place that even has college access, etc...

    Your social life matters too... if you are surrounded by and are friends with people who only care about gangs and drugs and not about success, you probably won't go to college either. It has a lot to do with up-bringing.



  • @tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:

    @irj said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:

    @tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:

    @mike-davis said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:

    @tim_g I don't think one or the other is a good predictor of an outcome. It just shows there isn't a strong correlation.

    Well it says that more than half (60%) of the world's billionaires did graduate college.

    I do realize that statistic by itself is inconclusive, but it still shows that your more likely to be a billionaire if you graduate college.

    It is a meme... so it may not even be true. I never verified it.

    Or if you are a billionaire, you more than likely have the privilege to go to college as it is already paid for by your family.

    Anyone can go to college. The poorer you are the more likely it is to be free... where you even get money for gas and such.

    The privilege part is whether or not you have the means to go to college... such as a car, time, ability to put kids in child care so you can go, live in a place that even has college access, etc...

    Your social life matters too... if you are surrounded by and are friends with people who only care about gangs and drugs and not about success, you probably won't go to college either. It has a lot to do with up-bringing.

    The real question that has to be asked, would the Billionaires who went to college, be a billionaire if they didn't go to college. That then gets to the crux of the issue.



  • @penguinwrangler said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:

    @tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:

    @irj said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:

    @tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:

    @mike-davis said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:

    @tim_g I don't think one or the other is a good predictor of an outcome. It just shows there isn't a strong correlation.

    Well it says that more than half (60%) of the world's billionaires did graduate college.

    I do realize that statistic by itself is inconclusive, but it still shows that your more likely to be a billionaire if you graduate college.

    It is a meme... so it may not even be true. I never verified it.

    Or if you are a billionaire, you more than likely have the privilege to go to college as it is already paid for by your family.

    Anyone can go to college. The poorer you are the more likely it is to be free... where you even get money for gas and such.

    The privilege part is whether or not you have the means to go to college... such as a car, time, ability to put kids in child care so you can go, live in a place that even has college access, etc...

    Your social life matters too... if you are surrounded by and are friends with people who only care about gangs and drugs and not about success, you probably won't go to college either. It has a lot to do with up-bringing.

    The real question that has to be asked, would the Billionaires who went to college, be a billionaire if they didn't go to college. That then gets to the crux of the issue.

    There is simply no way to know, so shouldn't be asked.



  • There are 540 Billionaires in America. There are 205 million working-age adults (source:https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LFWA64TTUSM647S), Approximately 40% of them have a degree (source: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/percentage-americans-college-degrees-rises-paying-degrees-tops-financial-challenges) so do the math it comes out to 82 Million. 60% of the Billionaires have college degrees so that means 324 people with a college degree are billionaires. So the chance someone with a college degree becomes a billionaire is 0.000003951219512195121951219512195122 I wouldn't say that a college degree is a contributing factor to their success, it can be part of it though. Most often self-made billionaires are a special breed of people, I would say if you look at their traits as a person it would show what really caused them to succeed. This also doesn't make a difference between self-made billionaires and inherited fortunes.

    @scottalanmiller correct me if I am wrong, your argument is that a college degree is not needed and often ends up financially hurting the individual and I do believe the numbers back that up. Someone can be successful without a college degree and not be poor and have no opportunity. I believe we do need to push back against the idea that college and/or military is the only option for someone. That was the impression I had. I wish someone would have shown me a different way.



  • @penguinwrangler said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:

    So the chance someone with a college degree becomes a billionaire is 0.000003951219512195121951219512195122

    Right, and the chances of someone without a college degree to become a billionaire is even less.


  • Service Provider

    When it comes right down to it, I think those of us that know what we know have to talk to young people facing that decision and show them an alternative to what the college institution is going to show them. We have to tell the student to look at the decision like an investment and justify the decision that way.

    Encourage them to read books like Rich Dad, Poor Dad and think about investments instead of just listening to the mantra that if you go to college you'll earn more money.


  • Vendor

    @mike-davis said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:

    Rich Dad, Poor Dad

    Not really that great of a book, beyond arguing people should pay attention to cashflow, and invest in things that earn interest. Kiyosaki is a fraud. Idiot was preaching to buy Gold in 2015 and get out of the market. His obsession with slumlord rental properties is just a step above "flip this house" scaminars.


  • Vendor

    @tim_g Billionaires are outliers. Using them as a straw-man for college success or not vs. actual data is.... well a bad idea.

    I'd also point out that some of the tech ones (Gates, Jobs) still went to college, and built their initial network there. Maybe they didn't need to graduate, but the first 2 years of classes (and more importantly) connections got them where they are now.



  • @storageninja said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:

    Billionaires are outliers. Using them as a straw-man for college success or not vs. actual data is.... well a bad idea

    I'm doing nothing more than stating a simple fact based on a statistical number.


  • Vendor

    @mike-davis said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:

    and think about investments instead of just listening to the mantra that if you go to college you'll earn more money.

    If you want kids to think about investments some advise....

    1. Against the Gods. https://www.amazon.com/Against-Gods-Remarkable-Story-Risk/dp/0471295639
      Teaches them Risk, and why humans are terrible at it.

    2. Freakanomics. Applied statistics. (Also a fun read)

    3. A random walk down Wall Street. - Good overview of why as a retail investor what your place in the world is.

    Listen:

    Planet money (NPR) Good podcast on all things money, finance, stats.
    Freakanomics podcast - good fun trivial around stats.

    Subscriptions:

    Read the WSJ. https://www.wsj.com/ Well worth the subscription. I started reading USA today in first grade, but I moved onto the WSJ for biz coverage, and CSM for current events.

    The Economist. Gives them a good neo liberal view of global economics with some realpolitik mixed in.


  • Service Provider

    0_1519741245156_16391B1B-0677-4B7B-91B2-00E337869212.jpeg



  • None of these rants even address the fact you go to university to get an education, not to learn by yourself in a vacuum.
    Go read a book youve never read before, perhaps a classic. Read it by yourself without doing any research on the author or his/her motivations or the time in which the book was written. Then after reading it, go find someone who knows literature and tell that person what you think of the book. Guaranteed they find your opinion of the book naive and uninformed.

    There is real value in getting contextual information from people who know what they are talking about.



  • @momurda I'm all for college as a means of education. That's kind of the original intent. However modern colleges are "career" oriented. Find someone today that thinks liberal arts and sciences are important in a collegiate education. They are rare, colleges today are almost always about the "job" at the end of the degree and not the education you get... getting there.


  • Service Provider

    @momurda said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:

    None of these rants even address the fact you go to university to get an education, not to learn by yourself in a vacuum.
    Go read a book youve never read before, perhaps a classic. Read it by yourself without doing any research on the author or his/her motivations or the time in which the book was written. Then after reading it, go find someone who knows literature and tell that person what you think of the book. Guaranteed they find your opinion of the book naive and uninformed.

    There is real value in getting contextual information from people who know what they are talking about.

    University isn't some magical provider of context, though. In fact, university has a track record of getting that context wrong. Not always, for sure. But why do you perceive reading a book at home as being without context and reading one in college has having context? No one is questioning the value of that context, but I can get all that context, faster, and more accurately on my own that I can in a college classroom.

    So assuming that I will read the book and have the context, and do it more quickly without someone to spoonfeed it to me... where is the college value? All it does is make me read more slowly, spend time getting to and from a classroom, spend time learning how to present the book in a way that makes an arbitrary professor happy, and spend money to do it instead of just getting the context and reading the book and getting the learning as quickly and efficiently as possible.

    I've had good college classes that taught literature in context and it was a good experience. Not as good as if I had done it on my own, but it was good. But I get that context with every book I read already. I always research the authors, the history, etc. That's just a normal part of reading. Same as I do with other forms of literature.


  • Service Provider

    @coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:

    @momurda I'm all for college as a means of education. That's kind of the original intent. However modern colleges are "career" oriented. Find someone today that thinks liberal arts and sciences are important in a collegiate education. They are rare, colleges today are almost always about the "job" at the end of the degree and not the education you get... getting there.

    Even those liberal pieces, you can teach all of that to yourself. Certainly colleges are way better at that stuff than career stuff since the entire collegiate experience is built around teaching those parts. In theory the one value of college is putting a bunch of other learners at the same level together in a classroom to encourage discussion. Unfortunately, this is only of value to the middle of the road students. Those that are not very good fail to participate. Those that are above average end up being nothing more than unpaid professors doing lecturing without getting the peer discussions.

    The problem there is that as the college system starts to become a substitute high school accepting students younger and younger (they take college freshman regularly at 15 in Texas now), and do high school classes in college (students can basically go right from freshman year of HS directly to college without taking HS classes so they are in college without any HS level background) and encourage larger and larger percentages of the population to attend college (so instead of the elite being the only ones there, now all the random kids who were problems in HS are still there) the middle of the road student is now no longer of much value to discuss ideas with making the whole situation worse and worse.



  • @scottalanmiller
    No idea what substitute high school means. Unless colleges have dramatically lowered their requirements in the last 20 years and are teaching HS level courses since i was enrolled.
    The value I am talking about is not money. The thinking that all must be measured with dollars and anything that doesnt lead directly to more dollars or you saving dollars is worthless--is wrong.
    Thinking like that can(did) lead an entire generation astray into condoning the behavior of and empowering people like Donald Trump/Carl Icahn(two easy examples) instead of ostracizing or imprisoning them.