Just How Hard is University to Overcome
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Good timing that this just popped up...
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@scottalanmiller and I were discussing this thread today, which is why I resurrected it.
I asked the question ... if college was free, would you still feel this way?
My contention is that the "HS Benefit After Investments" is only applicable if you can bank the $146K in tuition.
Without that, you would only have the additional 4 years of salary to bank over the kid in college not making money. However, most 17 year olds are probably closer to $20K yearly than $38K. And the college goer can offset that by working. They work 20 hours a week? Then the non college goer only gets them by $10K.
And if they are not in college, there are probably a lot of other costs associated which will eat into the $20K, thus making any "HS Benefit After Investment" amount less and less.
I figure they would need to save 20K over the 4 years at the mentioned 8% to break even. But then they are just even, and the college educated person makes much more and can invest much more.
You can also skew this by having the college educated person invest their increased earning amount.
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@brrabill said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@scottalanmiller and I were discussing this thread today, which is why I resurrected it.
I asked the question ... if college was free, would you still feel this way?
My contention is that the "HS Benefit After Investments" is only applicable if you can bank the $146K in tuition.
Without that, you would only have the additional 4 years of salary to bank over the kid in college not making money. However, most 17 year olds are probably closer to $20K yearly than $38K. And the college goer can offset that by working. They work 20 hours a week? Then the non college goer only gets them by $10K.
And if they are not in college, there are probably a lot of other costs associated which will eat into the $20K, thus making any "HS Benefit After Investment" amount less and less.
I figure they would need to save 20K over the 4 years at the mentioned 8% to break even. But then they are just even, and the college educated person makes much more and can invest much more.
You can also skew this by having the college educated person invest their increased earning amount.
Those other costs exist regardless. Was the original calculation just tuition or did it also include room and board?
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Or you can pursue a bachelors or masters degree while working full time as well as investing in something like SP500 or 401k.
That's what I plan on doing in the kind-of-near future when my personal life opens up more free time to put in like 22+ hours for studying. I can't find a decent online only offering with good reputation, so may be forced to do it super slowly at a brick and mortar in evenings.
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@tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
Or you can pursue a bachelors or masters degree while working full time as well as investing in something like SP500 or 401k.
That's what I plan on doing in the kind-of-near future when my personal life opens up more free time to put in like 22+ hours for studying. I can't find a decent online only offering with good reputation, so may be forced to do it super slowly at a brick and mortar in evenings.
What are you going for?
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@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
Or you can pursue a bachelors or masters degree while working full time as well as investing in something like SP500 or 401k.
That's what I plan on doing in the kind-of-near future when my personal life opens up more free time to put in like 22+ hours for studying. I can't find a decent online only offering with good reputation, so may be forced to do it super slowly at a brick and mortar in evenings.
What are you going for?
Not sure anymore. All universities call the same programs something different, or add their own spin. So I have no idea anymore. Especially after reading all of Scott's info on college education. I was thinking something science-y and IT-ish. Something to set me up the best in the future in the IT field at a high level, to make more money.
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@tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
Or you can pursue a bachelors or masters degree while working full time as well as investing in something like SP500 or 401k.
That's what I plan on doing in the kind-of-near future when my personal life opens up more free time to put in like 22+ hours for studying. I can't find a decent online only offering with good reputation, so may be forced to do it super slowly at a brick and mortar in evenings.
What are you going for?
Not sure anymore. All universities call the same programs something different, or add their own spin. So I have no idea anymore. Especially after reading all of Scott's info on college education. I was thinking something science-y and IT-ish. Something to set me up the best in the future in the IT field at a high level, to make more money.
Recent research, aside from Scott talking about it, has shown that in specific technical industries grad degrees are a net negative. You generally don't earn more money by having a degree.
That being said. I wouldn't go for something IT related. Go for an MBA or something related. It will give you more background on how a business works as well as classes on things like accounting, risk management, and project management.
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If you think about the Rule of 72, if you take 6 years to go to college, you would have half as much money at retirement as someone that started 6 years earlier assuming a 12% return. 12% might be a generous rate of return, but so is doubling your entire 401 as you near retirement.
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@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
Or you can pursue a bachelors or masters degree while working full time as well as investing in something like SP500 or 401k.
That's what I plan on doing in the kind-of-near future when my personal life opens up more free time to put in like 22+ hours for studying. I can't find a decent online only offering with good reputation, so may be forced to do it super slowly at a brick and mortar in evenings.
What are you going for?
Not sure anymore. All universities call the same programs something different, or add their own spin. So I have no idea anymore. Especially after reading all of Scott's info on college education. I was thinking something science-y and IT-ish. Something to set me up the best in the future in the IT field at a high level, to make more money.
Recent research, aside from Scott talking about it, has shown that in specific technical industries grad degrees are a net negative. You generally don't earn more money by having a degree.
That being said. I wouldn't go for something IT related. Go for an MBA or something related. It will give you more background on how a business works as well as classes on things like accounting, risk management, and project management.
So given where I am at currently in my career, getting a BIT and/or MSIT would most likely not get me a raise or open up an opportunity later down the road that pays more with that?
I'm also keeping my IT education up to date... constantly educating in all IT aspects. I'm using certifications as a way to learn and do my job better.
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@tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
Or you can pursue a bachelors or masters degree while working full time as well as investing in something like SP500 or 401k.
That's what I plan on doing in the kind-of-near future when my personal life opens up more free time to put in like 22+ hours for studying. I can't find a decent online only offering with good reputation, so may be forced to do it super slowly at a brick and mortar in evenings.
What are you going for?
Not sure anymore. All universities call the same programs something different, or add their own spin. So I have no idea anymore. Especially after reading all of Scott's info on college education. I was thinking something science-y and IT-ish. Something to set me up the best in the future in the IT field at a high level, to make more money.
Recent research, aside from Scott talking about it, has shown that in specific technical industries grad degrees are a net negative. You generally don't earn more money by having a degree.
That being said. I wouldn't go for something IT related. Go for an MBA or something related. It will give you more background on how a business works as well as classes on things like accounting, risk management, and project management.
So given where I am at currently in my career, getting a BIT and/or MSIT would most likely not get me a raise or open up an opportunity later down the road that pays more with that?
I'm also keeping my IT education up to date... constantly educating in all IT aspects. I'm using certifications as a way to learn and do my job better.
Pretty much you've got it. Certifications and experience are a better investment.
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@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
Or you can pursue a bachelors or masters degree while working full time as well as investing in something like SP500 or 401k.
That's what I plan on doing in the kind-of-near future when my personal life opens up more free time to put in like 22+ hours for studying. I can't find a decent online only offering with good reputation, so may be forced to do it super slowly at a brick and mortar in evenings.
What are you going for?
Not sure anymore. All universities call the same programs something different, or add their own spin. So I have no idea anymore. Especially after reading all of Scott's info on college education. I was thinking something science-y and IT-ish. Something to set me up the best in the future in the IT field at a high level, to make more money.
Recent research, aside from Scott talking about it, has shown that in specific technical industries grad degrees are a net negative. You generally don't earn more money by having a degree.
That being said. I wouldn't go for something IT related. Go for an MBA or something related. It will give you more background on how a business works as well as classes on things like accounting, risk management, and project management.
So given where I am at currently in my career, getting a BIT and/or MSIT would most likely not get me a raise or open up an opportunity later down the road that pays more with that?
I'm also keeping my IT education up to date... constantly educating in all IT aspects. I'm using certifications as a way to learn and do my job better.
Pretty much you've got it. Certifications and experience are a better investment.
I just made a video, that is like 20 minutes long. but I think that it is good. It'll be up in a few days.
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@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
Or you can pursue a bachelors or masters degree while working full time as well as investing in something like SP500 or 401k.
That's what I plan on doing in the kind-of-near future when my personal life opens up more free time to put in like 22+ hours for studying. I can't find a decent online only offering with good reputation, so may be forced to do it super slowly at a brick and mortar in evenings.
What are you going for?
Not sure anymore. All universities call the same programs something different, or add their own spin. So I have no idea anymore. Especially after reading all of Scott's info on college education. I was thinking something science-y and IT-ish. Something to set me up the best in the future in the IT field at a high level, to make more money.
Recent research, aside from Scott talking about it, has shown that in specific technical industries grad degrees are a net negative. You generally don't earn more money by having a degree.
That being said. I wouldn't go for something IT related. Go for an MBA or something related. It will give you more background on how a business works as well as classes on things like accounting, risk management, and project management.
So given where I am at currently in my career, getting a BIT and/or MSIT would most likely not get me a raise or open up an opportunity later down the road that pays more with that?
I'm also keeping my IT education up to date... constantly educating in all IT aspects. I'm using certifications as a way to learn and do my job better.
Pretty much you've got it. Certifications and experience are a better investment.
I suppose an MBA would be the best route to take, then. Keep going my current route with education/certifications... and use the MBA to better apply my IT know-how to best fit the business.
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@tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
So given where I am at currently in my career, getting a BIT and/or MSIT would most likely not get me a raise or open up an opportunity later down the road that pays more with that?
This is true even if you are 18. Every day past 18, the amount that university will help you drops quickly. At 18 it is a big gamble, by 22 it is almost certain that it can't be beneficial. By 30, it takes a miracle.
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@scottalanmiller said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
So given where I am at currently in my career, getting a BIT and/or MSIT would most likely not get me a raise or open up an opportunity later down the road that pays more with that?
This is true even if you are 18. Every day past 18, the amount that university will help you drops quickly. At 18 it is a big gamble, by 22 it is almost certain that it can't be beneficial. By 30, it takes a miracle.
Yeah I get that part if you mean from a financial point of view... as far as missing out on money investments while you are in college.
But I would be doing it while working full time and continuing investing in SP500 and 401k... that wouldnt' stop.
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@tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
Or you can pursue a bachelors or masters degree while working full time as well as investing in something like SP500 or 401k.
That's what I plan on doing in the kind-of-near future when my personal life opens up more free time to put in like 22+ hours for studying. I can't find a decent online only offering with good reputation, so may be forced to do it super slowly at a brick and mortar in evenings.
What are you going for?
Not sure anymore. All universities call the same programs something different, or add their own spin. So I have no idea anymore. Especially after reading all of Scott's info on college education. I was thinking something science-y and IT-ish. Something to set me up the best in the future in the IT field at a high level, to make more money.
Recent research, aside from Scott talking about it, has shown that in specific technical industries grad degrees are a net negative. You generally don't earn more money by having a degree.
That being said. I wouldn't go for something IT related. Go for an MBA or something related. It will give you more background on how a business works as well as classes on things like accounting, risk management, and project management.
So given where I am at currently in my career, getting a BIT and/or MSIT would most likely not get me a raise or open up an opportunity later down the road that pays more with that?
I'm also keeping my IT education up to date... constantly educating in all IT aspects. I'm using certifications as a way to learn and do my job better.
Pretty much you've got it. Certifications and experience are a better investment.
I suppose an MBA would be the best route to take, then. Keep going my current route with education/certifications... and use the MBA to better apply my IT know-how to best fit the business.
Business degrees are always superior to IT ones at all stages. But they fall into the same valuation calculations.
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@tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
But I would be doing it while working full time and continuing investing in SP500 and 401k... that wouldnt' stop.
Everyone makes this argument. But for this to make sense you have to assume that you could not do other work, could not do other education and so forth. Is that true? Is getting a degree the only means of utilizing that free time?
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Where this argument DOES make sense, is when you get to go to university on the company's dime AND time. Then it becomes a very different thing. And yet still, there is a good argument that holding back your career during that time is not worth it.
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@scottalanmiller said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
But I would be doing it while working full time and continuing investing in SP500 and 401k... that wouldnt' stop.
Everyone makes this argument. But for this to make sense you have to assume that you could not do other work, could not do other education and so forth. Is that true? Is getting a degree the only means of utilizing that free time?
Well if I want to break into management at some point in my life, an MBA will more likely get me there than an MCSE.
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For example...
if I came to you for a management position with only a bunch of IT experience with MCSEs and Linux certs
versus:
someone else coming to you with a bunch of IT experience, MCSEs and Linux certs, plus an MBA...
Which would you choose?
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@tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@scottalanmiller said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
But I would be doing it while working full time and continuing investing in SP500 and 401k... that wouldnt' stop.
Everyone makes this argument. But for this to make sense you have to assume that you could not do other work, could not do other education and so forth. Is that true? Is getting a degree the only means of utilizing that free time?
Well if I want to break into management at some point in my life, an MBA will more likely get me there than an MCSE.
Well yes, that much is true. But is an MBA more likely to get you there than compared to other things you could be doing with your time? If your goal was management and you suggested an MCSE I'd say you were crazy. If you suggest an MBA I'd just suggest you consider the range of options.
I got into management, didn't need an MBA. But getting an MBA would have stalled my career a lot.
