The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3
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@dafyre said
But you could still run into that with VMware, or Xen, or Hyper-V, or KVM, or any piece of software.
Yes but there is a world of difference between those 3 and Scale in sheer volume of installs alone.
How many Scale competent guys can I get versus someone who works in any of the above?
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@dafyre said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
@Breffni-Potter said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
@dafyre said
Yeah, that is a perfectly valid point... and I think that is why their starter kits are more than one node, lol.
Yes, but even if I buy 500 nodes, the software is the single point of failure.
Look at Microsoft Azure.
They've not had hardware problems, Not lost data centres, their issues have been software based.
But you could still run into that with VMware, or Xen, or Hyper-V, or KVM, or any piece of software. I'm glad to say, I've never seen an issue with the Scale systems take out more than one node (and that was a hardware failure).
They do an extreme amount of testing. Unlike most solutions that only test compatibility, they test the full stack of hardware configurations, software versions, and even firmware in every permutation so you know that you matter what you are running, it's a tested configuration.
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@Breffni-Potter said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
@dafyre said
But you could still run into that with VMware, or Xen, or Hyper-V, or KVM, or any piece of software.
Yes but there is a world of difference between those 3 and Scale in sheer volume of installs alone.
Is that really a factor, though? Scale only has a couple configurations to test, each of those literally have millions of configurations that they don't test. So when thinking of the scale for testing, Scale actually has the advantage.
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@scottalanmiller said
It's not, really. Because it runs on KVM you can always take a backup and restore to any hardware with KVM without doing a P2V and you can always to a P2V to disparate hardware. So there isn't any lock in.
Ok, but the Scale model says you don't need to know how to do that. It's entire selling point is simplicity and ease of use.
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@scottalanmiller said
Yes but there is a world of difference between those 3 and Scale in sheer volume of installs alone.
Is that really a factor, though?
Yes
@Breffni-Potter said
How many Scale competent guys can I get versus someone who works in any of the above?
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@Breffni-Potter said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
@scottalanmiller said
It's not, really. Because it runs on KVM you can always take a backup and restore to any hardware with KVM without doing a P2V and you can always to a P2V to disparate hardware. So there isn't any lock in.
Ok, but the Scale model says you don't need to know how to do that. It's entire selling point is simplicity and ease of use.
Okay, so basically you are saying that there is no way to make you happy. If they offload the work, you are concerned about being dependent on them but if there is a simple way to not be dependent, you are worried that you need to know what you are doing. You can't have it both ways.
You get a system that really doesn't require you to know those things and there isn't a significant risk of needing to do so. If things fail so badly that you need a mitigation strategy you can just hire a consultant to help, it's trivial and standard work.
The issue here is that the OTHER products you would move to if you don't want to be locked in require more knowledge than using Scale does. So the base of your issue here, I think, is that if you choose to leave Scale, you will lose the benefits of the Scale. That's not really a problem with the Scale but a problem with everything that isn't Scale, right?
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@Breffni-Potter said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
@scottalanmiller said
Yes but there is a world of difference between those 3 and Scale in sheer volume of installs alone.
Is that really a factor, though?
Yes
@Breffni-Potter said
How many Scale competent guys can I get versus someone who works in any of the above?
How is it a factor? The Scale has a bigger scale of testing. So if it IS a factor, Scale wins, right?
How many Scale guys do you need? Even people who have never used one are competent on it. You can't find competent Vmware people to save your life, just look at SW and the kind of people that companies are hiring for that. They can't find people who even know the basics in most cases.
That there are a "lot of people selling services" is not a pro for a platform, it's a negative.
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@scottalanmiller said
Okay, so basically you are saying that there is no way to make you happy.
Nope, simply clarify what they say:
@scale said
4. Support Engineers
You’ve spent many hours developing close relationships with a circle of support engineers from your various server, storage, and hypervisor vendors over months and years but those relationships simply can’t continue.
So their suggestion is, their big pitch is, you never need a consultant again, we'll do it all.
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@scottalanmiller said
You can't find competent Vmware people to save your life, just look at SW and the kind of people that companies are hiring for that.
There are more IT pros than on Spiceworks so not the best example and I wouldn't generalize people by the products they use.
Not that I'm a fan of VMware...But that's a separate thing.
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@Breffni-Potter said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
So their suggestion is, their big pitch is, you never need a consultant again, we'll do it all.
Right and.... what's the issue with that? I'm very confused by what you are not okay with there. They provide all of the consulting that you were getting before. So what's the issue with the statement?
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@Breffni-Potter said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
@scottalanmiller said
You can't find competent Vmware people to save your life, just look at SW and the kind of people that companies are hiring for that.
There are more IT pros than on Spiceworks so not the best example and I wouldn't generalize people by the products they use.
But when you start using concepts like "more people in the market" then SW is a good indicator of what "volume" produces. It's a great example of why using windows makes it harder to get support rather than easier. Because anyone and everyone "supports" Windows and VMware... but they don't know what they are doing. That volume makes it harder to find qualified people.
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@scottalanmiller said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
@Breffni-Potter said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
So their suggestion is, their big pitch is, you never need a consultant again, we'll do it all.
Right and.... what's the issue with that? I'm very confused by what you are not okay with there. They provide all of the consulting that you were getting before. So what's the issue with the statement?
Because you can't then turn around and hire a KVM consultant. You are tied into their support systems.
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@Breffni-Potter said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
@scottalanmiller said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
@Breffni-Potter said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
So their suggestion is, their big pitch is, you never need a consultant again, we'll do it all.
Right and.... t's the issue with that? I'm very confused by what you are not okay with there. They provide all of the consulting that you were getting before. So what's the issue with the statement?
Because you can't then turn around and hire a KVM consultant. You are tied into their support systems.
You are ALLOWED to hire one. There is just no point to it. You are NOT tied into their support if you want to move off of their system. There is no lockin, just no need for additional consultants.
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@scottalanmiller said
You are ALLOWED to hire one. There is just no point to it. You are NOT tied into their support if you want to move off of their system. There is no lockin, just no need for additional consultants.
Ummm, but you kind of are locked in.
With a Dell/HP/Sun Micro or most systems, I can buy parts through a third party supplier.
How do I get a replacement PSU if not through Scale? Is that an option?
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What I can't figure out is... are you unhappy because they don't require you to hire outside consultants? Or because you can if you want to? I can't figure out what aspect you are unhappy with or concerned about. It seems like the best option, right? They do the most testing, provide inclusive support, don't require you to need support 99% of the time because it's not meant to generate support calls (it is in their interest to make it "just work") but they don't lock you in leaving you free to migrate off, mitigate risk or get consultants if you want.
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@Breffni-Potter said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
@scottalanmiller said
You are ALLOWED to hire one. There is just no point to it. You are NOT tied into their support if you want to move off of their system. There is no lockin, just no need for additional consultants.
Ummm, but you kind of are locked in.
With a Dell/HP/Sun Micro or most systems, I can buy parts through a third party supplier.
How do I get a replacement PSU if not through Scale? Is that an option?
Well sure, you just get it from @xByteSean or Dell direct or a store or whatever. You don't, since you get it from @Scale, but if you felt the need, of course you can get it from anywhere. There no physical lock in at all.
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@Breffni-Potter said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
With a Dell/HP/Sun Micro or most systems, I can buy parts through a third party supplier.
Maybe you are not aware that Scale is 100% Dell enterprise hardware? All stock (very specific parts, but all stock.) Even the firmware is Dell stock, just very tightly version controlled. Our cluster, for example, is Dell R430 nodes.
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But, in that same vein, how do you get Dell parts? There is only one vendor, Dell. You might be able to find third party components, but mostly you are just talking about "different Dell stores." It's still Dell as the supplier. If Dell stock runs out, that impacts all Dells everywhere.
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@scottalanmiller said
Maybe you are not aware that Scale is 100% Dell enterprise hardware?
No. Because they don't say it anywhere on their marketing. So it looks like a vendor lock in magic box with software only they know the ins and outs of.
There's too much "black magic" speak in Scale's marketing. "Our Hyper-core HC3 amazing thing will..." - Yes but a few more facts would be helpful.
@scottalanmiller said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
But, in that same vein, how do you get Dell parts? There is only one vendor, Dell.
Sure but Dell are not the only vendor for Servers in the world.
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@Breffni-Potter said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
@scottalanmiller said
Maybe you are not aware that Scale is 100% Dell enterprise hardware?
No. Because they don't say it anywhere on their marketing. So it looks like a vendor lock in magic box with software only they know the ins and outs of.
I feel like that's a weird thing to market, but I could see some value there. But I don't think any reasonable customer is really worried about getting third party parts - buying into ANY system like this (I have an article planned around this) means, 100%, that you are buying into trust and reliance on their system. Same as any enterprise SAN, any hyperconverged solution, any NAS, etc. If you are thinking about third party parts, you are missing the goals. That's not how these systems work. Is it a downside? Yes. Is it also the selling point? Yes.
