PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?
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@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
I can peer into the software of my car to diagnose any issues the car is having. Legally. I have that right. I don't have the right to modify the software though.
No, show me how the DMCA allows that? You aren't allowed to open it up to look. not if they lock you out.
Read the information I linked above.
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@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
But the discussion is of "can I look at it" and the current laws say you can look at anything you want. I can look at the software of the tractor, but not modify it. If I even have a means to "look" at the code. More so would I know what to do with the code?
No the DMCA specifically says that you cannot do this.
You sir are wrong. 2015 Rule Making and From the actual source.
"Computer programs that are contained in and control the functioning of a motorized land vehicle such as a personal automobile, commercial motor vehicle or mechanized agricultural vehicle, except for computer programs primarily designed for the control of telematics or entertainment systems for such vehicle, when circumvention is a necessary step undertaken by the authorized owner of the vehicle to allow the diagnosis, repair or lawful modification of a vehicle function,"
Interesting, so you are saying that PBS was wrong and all of that article was incorrect fundamentally. It's good if they actually made an exception for that.
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I'm not saying that PBS has it wrong entirely, the software is still protected from modification under the DMCA ruling. But I as the owner have a right to look at the software (IE in the tractor example) to find out what is broken.
Fundamentally PBS is wrong, yes (as from the 2015 ruling exception). Which is why Pi Projects for Car dash cam's etc are all perfectly legal. The ODB2 connectors etc that @JaredBusch is looking at.
You're allowed to look, and export data for something you own physically. You aren't allowed to modify the underlying system though.
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@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
I'm not saying that PBS has it wrong entirely, the software is still protected from modification under the DMCA ruling. But I as the owner have a right to look at the software (IE in the tractor example) to find out what is broken.
Fundamentally PBS is wrong, yes (as from the 2015 ruling exception). Which is why Pi Projects for Car dash cam's etc are all perfectly legal. The ODB2 connectors etc that @JaredBusch is looking at.
You're allowed to look, and export data for something you own physically. You aren't allowed to modify the underlying system though.
Okay, so you CAN look, but you CAN'T fix.
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@scottalanmiller can't fix the software, but you can look and tell the manufacturer that their software is shit at this point or that.
You can still tear the engine apart.
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@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
But I can look at the software, every piece of it that is a part of the property I own.
No, it is not. You license it. VERY different. You own nothing.
99.9% of vehicles in the US are actually owned by the state government. I know some people who actually own their vehicle, and they pay no licensing/plate fees. Private property is a great thing, too bad so many people aren't even aware of what their rights actually are.
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@travisdh1 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
But I can look at the software, every piece of it that is a part of the property I own.
No, it is not. You license it. VERY different. You own nothing.
99.9% of vehicles in the US are actually owned by the state government. I know some people who actually own their vehicle, and they pay no licensing/plate fees. Private property is a great thing, too bad so many people aren't even aware of what their rights actually are.
That's not something I consider ownership. It is a tax. You still own the vehicle but if you want to run it on public roads then you need to pay a registration tax.
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@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
I am legally protected to do whatever I want with something I own, lets use the Tractor as an example.
No, the point of this is that you are not.
For example, the Library of Congress declared for a time that Rooting your phone was illegal. You own the device, but clearly, you're not allowed to do whatever you want with said device, because Rooting was specifically made illegal.
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@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@scottalanmiller can't fix the software, but you can look and tell the manufacturer that their software is shit at this point or that.
You can still tear the engine apart.
Which doesn't really help for fixing it yourself
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@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@scottalanmiller can't fix the software, but you can look and tell the manufacturer that their software is shit at this point or that.
You can still tear the engine apart.
Which doesn't really help for fixing it yourself
If software is the issue, and you're able to pinpoint the software bug, you submit that bug to the tractor manufacturer, they create a fix and then supply that fix to ever tractor of that model that needs it.
Granted, yeah you really don't get to fix a software bug, but at least you can check to see if there is one...
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@Dashrender said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
I am legally protected to do whatever I want with something I own, lets use the Tractor as an example.
No, the point of this is that you are not.
For example, the Library of Congress declared for a time that Rooting your phone was illegal. You own the device, but clearly, you're not allowed to do whatever you want with said device, because Rooting was specifically made illegal.
At least with a car, if you stop paying the state, you still own the car.. that's not the case with land. If you stop paying taxes, they put a lein on the land, then sell it out from under you to get paid for those taxes. This seems inherently wrong.
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@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@scottalanmiller can't fix the software, but you can look and tell the manufacturer that their software is shit at this point or that.
You can still tear the engine apart.
Which doesn't really help for fixing it yourself
If software is the issue, and you're able to pinpoint the software bug, you submit that bug to the tractor manufacturer, they create a fix and then supply that fix to ever tractor of that model that needs it.
Granted, yeah you really don't get to fix a software bug, but at least you can check to see if there is one...
But what happens when the manufacturer tells you to piss off, we won't fix it, now buy a new tractor? Now you're just out. Again, seems wrong!
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@Dashrender Of course it seems wrong, because fundamentally it is.
But if you have a tractor so old (but still using software, let's pretend its the year 2100 and you have a tractor from 2015) do you honestly think anyone will chase you for trying to "patch" the software?
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The point of the software protections are to protect the makers of the software from having their digital content stolen and used for other tractor makers.
It's not to stop the progress of the software. Even though it often does.
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@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
The point of the software protections are to protect the makers of the software from having their digital content stolen and used for other tractor makers.
It's not to stop the progress of the software. Even though it often does.
That's not a problem they really need to worry about though. Think about it this way. If the code was all open source, then anyone could see when anyone else was stealing their code for another purpose, and then the perpetrator would be sued. So the problem would be done.
Of course, This brings about another question - should software be copy writable/patent-able? Personally I don't think so. The trivial nature to someone in the field for creating the same output is so high that there seems like small chances that it would qualify for the patent process. I'm not sure what the copy write process is though.
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@Dashrender But you just provided an example of where software progression is stopped. IE the farmer who's looking at the code, find a bug and is told to piss of by the tractor maker.
That is a client retention issue. If the tractor maker doesn't want to fix it, they're losing a client.
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@Dashrender said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@scottalanmiller can't fix the software, but you can look and tell the manufacturer that their software is shit at this point or that.
You can still tear the engine apart.
Which doesn't really help for fixing it yourself
If software is the issue, and you're able to pinpoint the software bug, you submit that bug to the tractor manufacturer, they create a fix and then supply that fix to ever tractor of that model that needs it.
Granted, yeah you really don't get to fix a software bug, but at least you can check to see if there is one...
But what happens when the manufacturer tells you to piss off, we won't fix it, now buy a new tractor? Now you're just out. Again, seems wrong!
Or if the manufacturer can't fix it?
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@scottalanmiller In either the case of "we won't fix it" or "we can't fix it" the manufacturer is going to lose a client. At least the one.
If the tractor doesn't do the job as required, then that market space has a void for another tractor.
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@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@scottalanmiller In either the case of "we won't fix it" or "we can't fix it" the manufacturer is going to lose a client. At least the one.
If the tractor doesn't do the job as required, then that market space has a void for another tractor.
But that doesn't protect the consumer. The vendor still owns them.
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@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@scottalanmiller In either the case of "we won't fix it" or "we can't fix it" the manufacturer is going to lose a client. At least the one.
If the tractor doesn't do the job as required, then that market space has a void for another tractor.
But that doesn't protect the consumer. The vendor still owns them.
The consumer at that point has many options. Fix it if the manufacturer refuses or is unable to, or buy another tractor. (I'm not sure, but I'm willing to bet there is even a clause which says if the software manufacturer refuses to correct a problem, that the consumer can)
Nothing is forcing that consumer to use that tool, which doesn't do the job in the manner required. If it doesn't work, buy one that does.
