PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?
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@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
Software is protected from people tinkering, system designs are protected, but there is nothing which says I can't take my tractor apart. Besides maybe a warranty (which would be voided if I did with it in warranty)
No one should mention warranties here. They are totally unrelated and confusing because they get people thinking that this is a support item.
Engines run on software today. The software is part of the system, part of the engine.
But the engine can be made into a closed system too, the DMCA covers even that, I'm pretty sure, if they do it correctly.
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@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
I am legally protected to do whatever I want with something I own, lets use the Tractor as an example.
No, the point of this is that you are not.
Yes I am (physical property is protected so I can do whatever I want with it).
You can keep stating it, but the DMCA states that you are incorrect and has been proven many times in court. What you are stating is simply untrue.
Digital... not physical.
I can take apart the engine of my tractor and work on it all I want. I may not be able to access the software there (which again goes to what I've already said).
Software rights of design are protected, physical property is not. I could set the tractor on fire and be within my rights.
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@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
Software rights of design are protected, physical property is not. I could set the tractor on fire and be within my rights.
Even if that is correct, it does not matter, as part of the engine is in the software.
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@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
I am legally protected to do whatever I want with something I own, lets use the Tractor as an example.
No, the point of this is that you are not.
Yes I am (physical property is protected so I can do whatever I want with it).
There was bill recently in NY, it failed, that would have made it illegal to work on proprietary hardware and software. It was so broad that it could have easily been applied to cars and tractors.
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@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
Software rights of design are protected, physical property is not. I could set the tractor on fire and be within my rights.
Even if that is correct, it does not matter, as part of the engine is in the software.
But the discussion is of "can I look at it" and the current laws say you can look at anything you want. I can look at the software of the tractor, but not modify it. If I even have a means to "look" at the code. More so would I know what to do with the code?
I can look at the engine, and even modify / repair it as it's a physical piece of property.
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@coliver said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
I am legally protected to do whatever I want with something I own, lets use the Tractor as an example.
No, the point of this is that you are not.
Yes I am (physical property is protected so I can do whatever I want with it).
There was bill recently in NY, it failed, that would have made it illegal to work on proprietary hardware and software. It was so broad that it could have easily been applied to cars and tractors.
Which would've put every car repair shop in NY out of business immediately.
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@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@coliver said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
I am legally protected to do whatever I want with something I own, lets use the Tractor as an example.
No, the point of this is that you are not.
Yes I am (physical property is protected so I can do whatever I want with it).
There was bill recently in NY, it failed, that would have made it illegal to work on proprietary hardware and software. It was so broad that it could have easily been applied to cars and tractors.
Which would've put every car repair shop in NY out of business immediately.
On the small time shop mechanics, and not the Chevy / Ford / Dodge / etc places that are officially licensed to work on their respective brands.
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@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@coliver said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
I am legally protected to do whatever I want with something I own, lets use the Tractor as an example.
No, the point of this is that you are not.
Yes I am (physical property is protected so I can do whatever I want with it).
There was bill recently in NY, it failed, that would have made it illegal to work on proprietary hardware and software. It was so broad that it could have easily been applied to cars and tractors.
Which would've put every car repair shop in NY out of business immediately.
The intent was obviously to prevent 3rd party phone repair. But yes it could have easily been applied to car repair.
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@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
But the discussion is of "can I look at it" and the current laws say you can look at anything you want. I can look at the software of the tractor, but not modify it. If I even have a means to "look" at the code. More so would I know what to do with the code?
No the DMCA specifically says that you cannot do this.
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@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
But the discussion is of "can I look at it" and the current laws say you can look at anything you want. I can look at the software of the tractor, but not modify it. If I even have a means to "look" at the code. More so would I know what to do with the code?
No the DMCA specifically says that you cannot do this.
You sir are wrong. 2015 Rule Making and From the actual source.
"Computer programs that are contained in and control the functioning of a motorized land vehicle such as a personal automobile, commercial motor vehicle or mechanized agricultural vehicle, except for computer programs primarily designed for the control of telematics or entertainment systems for such vehicle, when circumvention is a necessary step undertaken by the authorized owner of the vehicle to allow the diagnosis, repair or lawful modification of a vehicle function,"
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This clause states that I am entitled to look at the software to try and diagnose an issue with my equipment.
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@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
I am legally protected to do whatever I want with something I own, lets use the Tractor as an example.
No, the point of this is that you are not.
Yes I am (physical property is protected so I can do whatever I want with it).
You don't own software. Don't believe me, then you should've read that license agreement before accepting it.
I'll stop there before opening a whole other can of worms.
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@travisdh1 Of course, you don't own the software, but you are entitled to look at software that is installed to a physical piece of property you own.
I can peer into the software of my car to diagnose any issues the car is having. Legally. I have that right. I don't have the right to modify the software though.
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@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
I can peer into the software of my car to diagnose any issues the car is having. Legally. I have that right. I don't have the right to modify the software though.
No, show me how the DMCA allows that? You aren't allowed to open it up to look. not if they lock you out.
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But I can look at the software, every piece of it that is a part of the property I own.
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@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
But I can look at the software, every piece of it that is a part of the property I own.
No, it is not. You license it. VERY different. You own nothing.
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@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
I can peer into the software of my car to diagnose any issues the car is having. Legally. I have that right. I don't have the right to modify the software though.
No, show me how the DMCA allows that? You aren't allowed to open it up to look. not if they lock you out.
Read the information I linked above.
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@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
But the discussion is of "can I look at it" and the current laws say you can look at anything you want. I can look at the software of the tractor, but not modify it. If I even have a means to "look" at the code. More so would I know what to do with the code?
No the DMCA specifically says that you cannot do this.
You sir are wrong. 2015 Rule Making and From the actual source.
"Computer programs that are contained in and control the functioning of a motorized land vehicle such as a personal automobile, commercial motor vehicle or mechanized agricultural vehicle, except for computer programs primarily designed for the control of telematics or entertainment systems for such vehicle, when circumvention is a necessary step undertaken by the authorized owner of the vehicle to allow the diagnosis, repair or lawful modification of a vehicle function,"
Interesting, so you are saying that PBS was wrong and all of that article was incorrect fundamentally. It's good if they actually made an exception for that.
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I'm not saying that PBS has it wrong entirely, the software is still protected from modification under the DMCA ruling. But I as the owner have a right to look at the software (IE in the tractor example) to find out what is broken.
Fundamentally PBS is wrong, yes (as from the 2015 ruling exception). Which is why Pi Projects for Car dash cam's etc are all perfectly legal. The ODB2 connectors etc that @JaredBusch is looking at.
You're allowed to look, and export data for something you own physically. You aren't allowed to modify the underlying system though.
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@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
I'm not saying that PBS has it wrong entirely, the software is still protected from modification under the DMCA ruling. But I as the owner have a right to look at the software (IE in the tractor example) to find out what is broken.
Fundamentally PBS is wrong, yes (as from the 2015 ruling exception). Which is why Pi Projects for Car dash cam's etc are all perfectly legal. The ODB2 connectors etc that @JaredBusch is looking at.
You're allowed to look, and export data for something you own physically. You aren't allowed to modify the underlying system though.
Okay, so you CAN look, but you CAN'T fix.
