Compare ClearOS with Zentyal
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@coliver said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Wouldn't this be similar to the Jurassic Park Effect? You're deploying systems that the user/admin doesn't generally, have any idea how the underlying components work?
It's exactly that. Not quite as extreme as doing it with storage due to the nature dependencies that we have on storage. But the same general problems exactly.
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@scottalanmiller Does this matter? I've installed and used thousands of pieces of software without knowing everything about how the underlying components work. I can install Windows Server and use AD and not know how the underlying subsystem works too. What's the point?
If anything, using Win Server abstracts the components away from me even more so than something like Webmin. At least with Webmin, I'm well aware it is just a GUI for making config changes, and I know underneath is BIND or SAMBA. With Windows I don't know anything about the subsystem, and they don't exactly let me have raw access to it.Are we suggesting here that the best way to do anything is only deal with raw components directly?
Technology would not be where it is today if people were not abstracting core stuff into simpler and simpler interfaces. I could probably write this forum post by sending obscure commands over SSH to a server with my API key, but frankly I'd rather just use the GUI and not deal with core components directly.
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Are we suggesting here that the best way to do anything is only deal with raw components directly?
Have you read the article that this is based on? It's very clearly not a problem with GUIs. It's about third party, non-expert dependencies that create a gap between you and the system that you are managing. GUIs from Microsoft or Red Hat I have no issue with. But a company or product that just slaps a GUI on top of an already existing management structure is generally problematic. You don't have the necessary vertical integration and release cycles.
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@scottalanmiller said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Are we suggesting here that the best way to do anything is only deal with raw components directly?
Have you read the article that this is based on? It's very clearly not a problem with GUIs. It's about third party, non-expert dependencies that create a gap between you and the system that you are managing. GUIs from Microsoft or Red Hat I have no issue with. But a company or product that just slaps a GUI on top of an already existing management structure is generally problematic. You don't have the necessary vertical integration and release cycles.
To play devils advocate can't the same be said about things like XO?
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@johnhooks said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
To play devils advocate can't the same be said about things like XO?
Yes, indeed. They could be. I was going to mention this but didn't go into detail... critical different is a management API. It's a layer from the integrated original team specifically for this purpose.
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@scottalanmiller said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Are we suggesting here that the best way to do anything is only deal with raw components directly?
Have you read the article that this is based on? It's very clearly not a problem with GUIs. It's about third party, non-expert dependencies that create a gap between you and the system that you are managing. GUIs from Microsoft or Red Hat I have no issue with. But a company or product that just slaps a GUI on top of an already existing management structure is generally problematic. You don't have the necessary vertical integration and release cycles.
I think we're getting too abstract here.
What specifically are you talking about as an example? Are you saying Webmin is doing this? What existing management structure is Webmin superseding?In my case I typically am not installing KDE or Gnome or anything, I just have CLI-only installations, so there is no existing management interface, just my raw scripts and configs. So Webmin, I don't think, would be acting as a 3rd level in this sense. It's directly acting on the default configs and scripts.
I can see how it would not make sense to install Linux with KDE or XFCE and then install another alternate GUI on top when there might be a GUI for any given service already available.
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@scottalanmiller said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Are we suggesting here that the best way to do anything is only deal with raw components directly?
Have you read the article that this is based on? It's very clearly not a problem with GUIs. It's about third party, non-expert dependencies that create a gap between you and the system that you are managing. GUIs from Microsoft or Red Hat I have no issue with. But a company or product that just slaps a GUI on top of an already existing management structure is generally problematic. You don't have the necessary vertical integration and release cycles.
I think we're getting too abstract here.
What specifically are you talking about as an example? Are you saying Webmin is doing this? What existing management structure is Webmin superseding?In my case I typically am not installing KDE or Gnome or anything, I just have CLI-only installations, so there is no existing management interface, just my raw scripts and configs. So Webmin, I don't think, would be acting as a 3rd level in this sense. It's directly acting on the default configs and scripts.
I can see how it would not make sense to install Linux with KDE or XFCE and then install another alternate GUI on top when there might be a GUI for any given service already available.
Webmin is what I mean here, though. It's interacting with non-guaranteed interfaces. What it is doing is a kludge, it has to be because of the third party nature. Webmin does probably the best job out there for this, but it still adds challenges.
There are existing text, TUI and GUI tools for those systems from the original vendors who ensure testing and integration through every patch, update, documentation, etc. Webmin tries to do this, but it is not at all the same.
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@scottalanmiller said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Are we suggesting here that the best way to do anything is only deal with raw components directly?
Have you read the article that this is based on? It's very clearly not a problem with GUIs. It's about third party, non-expert dependencies that create a gap between you and the system that you are managing. GUIs from Microsoft or Red Hat I have no issue with. But a company or product that just slaps a GUI on top of an already existing management structure is generally problematic. You don't have the necessary vertical integration and release cycles.
I think we're getting too abstract here.
What specifically are you talking about as an example? Are you saying Webmin is doing this? What existing management structure is Webmin superseding?In my case I typically am not installing KDE or Gnome or anything, I just have CLI-only installations, so there is no existing management interface, just my raw scripts and configs. So Webmin, I don't think, would be acting as a 3rd level in this sense. It's directly acting on the default configs and scripts.
I can see how it would not make sense to install Linux with KDE or XFCE and then install another alternate GUI on top when there might be a GUI for any given service already available.
When I mentioned it I was specifically referring to Zentyal and ClearOS. Webmin is slightly different, although it can still suffer from the same problems.
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@scottalanmiller said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@scottalanmiller said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Are we suggesting here that the best way to do anything is only deal with raw components directly?
Have you read the article that this is based on? It's very clearly not a problem with GUIs. It's about third party, non-expert dependencies that create a gap between you and the system that you are managing. GUIs from Microsoft or Red Hat I have no issue with. But a company or product that just slaps a GUI on top of an already existing management structure is generally problematic. You don't have the necessary vertical integration and release cycles.
I think we're getting too abstract here.
What specifically are you talking about as an example? Are you saying Webmin is doing this? What existing management structure is Webmin superseding?In my case I typically am not installing KDE or Gnome or anything, I just have CLI-only installations, so there is no existing management interface, just my raw scripts and configs. So Webmin, I don't think, would be acting as a 3rd level in this sense. It's directly acting on the default configs and scripts.
I can see how it would not make sense to install Linux with KDE or XFCE and then install another alternate GUI on top when there might be a GUI for any given service already available.
Webmin is what I mean here, though. It's interacting with non-guaranteed interfaces. What it is doing is a kludge, it has to be because of the third party nature. Webmin does probably the best job out there for this, but it still adds challenges.
There are existing text, TUI and GUI tools for those systems from the original vendors who ensure testing and integration through every patch, update, documentation, etc. Webmin tries to do this, but it is not at all the same.
For instance Webmin has a fairly competent IP Tables interface. However the FirewallD interface, until a recent update, was terrible.
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All of these are better than applying this logic to storage systems (FreeNAS for example) where the system is highly stateful. Many of these are mostly stateless or leaning towards that direction. So they are not in the same category.
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Can someone please tell me, then, what is the best unified interface to manage a server and its various used services?
Do I just hodgepodge around 15 different potential single-purpose GUIs? Stick strictly with CLI? Or is there a decent and capable unified interface or not?
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Can someone please tell me, then, what is the best unified interface to manage a server and its various used services?
Do I just hodgepodge around 15 different potential single-purpose GUIs? Stick strictly with CLI? Or is there a decent and capable unified interface or not?
It depends on what you are trying to do. For Windows I use the management interface that was designed for the task, or Powershell. I am using Powershell more and more. For Linux server I am 100% CLI. Easier, faster and much friendlier then a GUI providing you have some experience with it.
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@coliver said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Can someone please tell me, then, what is the best unified interface to manage a server and its various used services?
Do I just hodgepodge around 15 different potential single-purpose GUIs? Stick strictly with CLI? Or is there a decent and capable unified interface or not?
For Linux server I am 100% CLI. Easier, faster and much friendlier then a GUI providing you have some experience with it.
I could never agree to that sentiment. Anybody who thinks typing obscure commands and memorizing endless switches over simple point-n-click GUI and text boxes, it either part cyborg, or fooling themselves. lol
The only way I could ever work in "CLI only" is by having another computer available at all times so I can look up commands and how exactly to type stuff! Because man pages suck, and nothing is intuitive whatsoever!
I left DOS a long time ago and never looked back. Staring at a CLI is like looking into the abyss! I wish I could do it, but no matter how hard I try, my brain doesn't like it. -
@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Can someone please tell me, then, what is the best unified interface to manage a server and its various used services?
Do I just hodgepodge around 15 different potential single-purpose GUIs? Stick strictly with CLI? Or is there a decent and capable unified interface or not?
Well.... CLI I think is the best, if you really want to talk about which is the best. Not saying it is the only, only that it is the best. The least to go wrong, scales the best. Most uniform and lasts the longest.
Single purpose GUIs are sometimes teh answer, that's how Microsoft does it and it works well. A single GUI just doesn't work because everyone needs something else in it. There is a reason that unified GUIs just aren't a real thing in any significant way in systems administration. It's a great idea, but not one that people are really doing. Webmin is the closest that we've seen, but for scale the world mostly moved to things like Ansible and Chef.
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
I could never agree to that sentiment. Anybody who thinks typing obscure commands and memorizing endless switches over simple point-n-click GUI and text boxes, it either part cyborg, or fooling themselves. lol
Except lots of us do it and I've never seen a GUI admin of any platform handle 600+ servers alone. But for CLI people, it's generally trivial. Or doable, at least.
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@coliver said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Can someone please tell me, then, what is the best unified interface to manage a server and its various used services?
Do I just hodgepodge around 15 different potential single-purpose GUIs? Stick strictly with CLI? Or is there a decent and capable unified interface or not?
For Linux server I am 100% CLI. Easier, faster and much friendlier then a GUI providing you have some experience with it.
I could never agree to that sentiment. Anybody who thinks typing obscure commands and memorizing endless switches over simple point-n-click GUI and text boxes, it either part cyborg, or fooling themselves. lol
The only way I could ever work in "CLI only" is by having another computer available at all times so I can look up commands and how exactly to type stuff! Because man pages suck, and nothing is intuitive whatsoever!
I left DOS a long time ago and never looked back. Staring at a CLI is like looking into the abyss! I wish I could do it, but no matter how hard I try, my brain doesn't like it.I'm looking at this from basically the beginning of my career. I don't see systems administration being a one-off system on a local VM in the next few years. Management with a GUI doesn't make sense when you scale up. Learning Powershell, and the Linux CLI, will go a long way to making me more competitive when the time comes. Tab completion, and many other time savers, makes remembering commands much easier then looking through a GUI for me
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
The only way I could ever work in "CLI only" is by having another computer available at all times so I can look up commands and how exactly to type stuff! Because man pages suck, and nothing is intuitive whatsoever!
I'm not sure what you mean. I find it very intuitive. much moreso that the Windows GUI, for example. Not knocking the Windows GUI, just saying that that is a good one and I find it much harder to find things there than on the Linux CLI.
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@coliver said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
I'm looking at this from basically the beginning of my career. I don't see systems administration being a one-off system on a local VM in the next few years. Management with a GUI doesn't make sense when you scale up. Learning Powershell, and the Linux CLI, will go a long way to making me more competitive when the time comes.
I'll agree with @guyinpv here. This is getting less common but isn't going to go away. Needing a good way to admin a lot of stuff on one box will remain. I don't like it, but it will stick around.
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Do I just hodgepodge around 15 different potential single-purpose GUIs? Stick strictly with CLI? Or is there a decent and capable unified interface or not?
One of the reasons that we would lean towards different tools is because we would normally run a separate system for each of those services. So you'd need to connect to 15 different machines already.
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@scottalanmiller said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
The only way I could ever work in "CLI only" is by having another computer available at all times so I can look up commands and how exactly to type stuff! Because man pages suck, and nothing is intuitive whatsoever!
I'm not sure what you mean. I find it very intuitive. much moreso that the Windows GUI, for example. Not knocking the Windows GUI, just saying that that is a good one and I find it much harder to find things there than on the Linux CLI.
Well you are a victim of your experience and knowledge then!
How is a blank screen with a blinking cursor "intuitive"? No person on earth could be put in front of that and somehow just know what to do. But at least with a GUI there is something to look at, pieces of text, descriptions, help bubbles, search bars, text labels.
Most of the commands I've ever needed to do something relatively trivial have been just disgusting to look at. I mean, try something like, find the largest 10 files on your computer. Is it "intuitive" to just know how to type something like
du -a / | sort -n -r | head -n 10or whatever. What's intuitive about that? How would anybody know unless they searched Google on some other computer to try and figure it out and know exactly how to pipe the results and what those results will look like and how the next command needs to read the data.
And by no means is that command even complicated!
The other day I ran in to some obscure problem where my system acted like it was out of drive space, yet the drives did not report as full. Turns out after much research it was just that inode usage was filled up. What the heck is an inode? All the years I've been using Linux, the books I've read, the videos I've watched, nobody ever said "hey, you can actually have a full drive because inodes are used up, even when the drive reports as have 20% free space.".I had to delete old kernal images in /usr/src in order to free up inodes.
Nothing intuitive about
dfsaying I have 20% free space, butapt-getsaying it has no room to work because the drive is full. I have to discover this secret hidden inode thing that none of these tools makes mention of!No matter how much I try to study Linux, it takes me 10 minutes before I find myself searching Google tirelessly to figure out some mundane thing or where a config is stored, etc.
Anyway that's neither here nor there. I just think some people like the CLI environment, some people get it, some people "click" with it. But my brain just has a hard time. If my work is 80% Googling and 20% CLI work, but using a GUI makes it 80% work to 20% researching, I'd rather take the GUI. I just get more work done.
