Common Core haters
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That's the reason that I liked standardized testing in school. Everything in elementary school was about memorization. But you couldn't memorize of the standardized tests, you just had to figure it out.
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@scottalanmiller said:
here is the problem with communities supporting education....
Education is not universal. Parents of kids in public school are often passionate about the school and its budget. However, only parents of academically gifted children tend to be really passionate about the educational value. Parents of average kids want sports, music, arts, safety (everyone wants that), extra curricular stuff, community building and all kinds of non-academic things because their kids are not going to benefit from those good teachers and high end classes - bottom line, most people are average, welcome to math. And the parents of struggling students care about special needs programs. Very poor families focus on food programs and job skills.
Now that's just parents with kids in public school. Parents with extra resources often opt for private schools or home school taking many of the most academic minded students out of the public school system and making those parents tend to vote for reduced budgets or community programming.
Of the remaining population which involves kids just coming out of high school and everyone without kids... they don't have kids and the tax money is going to the families with kids. It's literally taking the money from the childless to give to the children of others. While many people understand the value of education, there is a huge voting base that feels that this is an intrusion. The same people that don't want free college education, for example. By far, most people are against these taxes and will not vote for increases as it doesn't benefit them.
So the problem with the local community school system is that when allowed to vote on school budgets, it is very natural for them to push education aside, try to lower budgets and do very, very bad things (according to the values of most of us here.)
I think the standards for what we consider to be 'average' would greatly increase if we paid gifted teachers to teach our children. I also think this extends to things that kids who are not academically gifted would take advantage of like vocational schooling. We could have a master welder teaching them or some guy who has welded in his life but isn't great at it and can't really teach them anything.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@JaredBusch said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
@JaredBusch said:
@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
The issue with the Common Core is not the Common Core itself. That's actually just a standard of what kids should know at different levels. It's actually not half bad. A bit slack, but anything in public education is.
People associate sometimes whacky and nonsensical teaching methods and standardized testing with Common Core. Those are actually the things that people hate or are having issues with.
That and things like number lines... I've seen a few examples and those simply don't make sense to me at all... and I took Math all the way up to Calculus and we never touched on that -- not in the long-winded roundabout way that I've seen examples work.
I was taught number lines. There is nothing convoluted about them. It is all math. Math is always 100% logical.
My daughters are taught number lines in their Japanese courses that have nothing to do with the US education system.
I was going to say. We were taught this in elementary school. I always thought it was a waste of time and could do it in my head.
I don't think that I was taught this but... there were lots of things that I just glossed over because they didn't make sense (as in... we already knew the material, why are we doing busy work.)
Then you failed to understand the concept being taught. You glossed over it think you were better than everyone else. Instead you lacked a basic understanding of math and made up for it with rote memorization.
That's quite the assumption. I certainly didn't think that I was better than anyone. I was the dumb kid in school. Always did terribly on tests. But I understood the math.
Honestly, this is very mean spirited. This is what school was like for me. If I did well at something, people tear you down for being "better". If you are bad at something, they call you dumb. I can't memorize, it's something I just can't do. Rote memorization is something I almost completely lack. Your statement is the farthest thing from describing my situation. I actually have a mental problem with memorization and its one of the reasons I was such a bad student, I simply cannot retain information that I do not understand and most of the teaching in school was solely around memorization.
I should clarify that I was not intending to call you out specifically. Just the general concept of people stating that they thought learning X was a waste of time because they already knew Y.
That came out bad against you as the flow of the conversation was simply me and you. I do apologize for that.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@JaredBusch said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
@JaredBusch said:
@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
The issue with the Common Core is not the Common Core itself. That's actually just a standard of what kids should know at different levels. It's actually not half bad. A bit slack, but anything in public education is.
People associate sometimes whacky and nonsensical teaching methods and standardized testing with Common Core. Those are actually the things that people hate or are having issues with.
That and things like number lines... I've seen a few examples and those simply don't make sense to me at all... and I took Math all the way up to Calculus and we never touched on that -- not in the long-winded roundabout way that I've seen examples work.
I was taught number lines. There is nothing convoluted about them. It is all math. Math is always 100% logical.
My daughters are taught number lines in their Japanese courses that have nothing to do with the US education system.
I was going to say. We were taught this in elementary school. I always thought it was a waste of time and could do it in my head.
I don't think that I was taught this but... there were lots of things that I just glossed over because they didn't make sense (as in... we already knew the material, why are we doing busy work.)
Then you failed to understand the concept being taught. You glossed over it think you were better than everyone else. Instead you lacked a basic understanding of math and made up for it with rote memorization.
That's quite the assumption. I certainly didn't think that I was better than anyone. I was the dumb kid in school. Always did terribly on tests. But I understood the math.
Honestly, this is very mean spirited. This is what school was like for me. If I did well at something, people tear you down for being "better". If you are bad at something, they call you dumb. I can't memorize, it's something I just can't do. Rote memorization is something I almost completely lack. Your statement is the farthest thing from describing my situation. I actually have a mental problem with memorization and its one of the reasons I was such a bad student, I simply cannot retain information that I do not understand and most of the teaching in school was solely around memorization.
I would describe this as a conceptual learner which is what I consider myself
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@wirestyle22 said:
I think the standards for what we consider to be 'average' would greatly increase if we paid gifted teachers to teach our children.
You may be correct but I don't think so. I mean, it would help slightly, but much? Not likely. In every large population you need a lot of workers and very few thinkers. Tiny places can work hard and skew this (Luxembourg) but large places cannot much.
The vast majority of jobs will not ever benefit from a great degree of education and the majority of people will be happiest not having jobs that would require them to do so. Just look at IT! We think that we are an elite field, but read SW and sadly, it seems that most people are offended if you even suggest that they need to learn something or think critically about it. They want to do a minimum effort, learn things by rote and never have to think about what they are doing.
Just like we said in another thread - to us the idea of not striving to improve ourselves is terrible. But to the average person, striving to improve themselves is what is terrible. It's painful and wasted effort.
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@JaredBusch said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@JaredBusch said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
@JaredBusch said:
@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
The issue with the Common Core is not the Common Core itself. That's actually just a standard of what kids should know at different levels. It's actually not half bad. A bit slack, but anything in public education is.
People associate sometimes whacky and nonsensical teaching methods and standardized testing with Common Core. Those are actually the things that people hate or are having issues with.
That and things like number lines... I've seen a few examples and those simply don't make sense to me at all... and I took Math all the way up to Calculus and we never touched on that -- not in the long-winded roundabout way that I've seen examples work.
I was taught number lines. There is nothing convoluted about them. It is all math. Math is always 100% logical.
My daughters are taught number lines in their Japanese courses that have nothing to do with the US education system.
I was going to say. We were taught this in elementary school. I always thought it was a waste of time and could do it in my head.
I don't think that I was taught this but... there were lots of things that I just glossed over because they didn't make sense (as in... we already knew the material, why are we doing busy work.)
Then you failed to understand the concept being taught. You glossed over it think you were better than everyone else. Instead you lacked a basic understanding of math and made up for it with rote memorization.
That's quite the assumption. I certainly didn't think that I was better than anyone. I was the dumb kid in school. Always did terribly on tests. But I understood the math.
Honestly, this is very mean spirited. This is what school was like for me. If I did well at something, people tear you down for being "better". If you are bad at something, they call you dumb. I can't memorize, it's something I just can't do. Rote memorization is something I almost completely lack. Your statement is the farthest thing from describing my situation. I actually have a mental problem with memorization and its one of the reasons I was such a bad student, I simply cannot retain information that I do not understand and most of the teaching in school was solely around memorization.
I should clarify that I was not intending to call you out specifically. Just the general concept of people stating that they thought learning X was a waste of time because they already knew Y.
That came out bad against you as the flow of the conversation was simply me and you. I do apologize for that.
Thanks. Then I understand. I agree that in the spirit of general understanding I understand the goal of number lines. I don't as an adult understand how they help with visualization but I recognize that my learning styles varies wildly from most people's.
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@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@JaredBusch said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
@JaredBusch said:
@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
The issue with the Common Core is not the Common Core itself. That's actually just a standard of what kids should know at different levels. It's actually not half bad. A bit slack, but anything in public education is.
People associate sometimes whacky and nonsensical teaching methods and standardized testing with Common Core. Those are actually the things that people hate or are having issues with.
That and things like number lines... I've seen a few examples and those simply don't make sense to me at all... and I took Math all the way up to Calculus and we never touched on that -- not in the long-winded roundabout way that I've seen examples work.
I was taught number lines. There is nothing convoluted about them. It is all math. Math is always 100% logical.
My daughters are taught number lines in their Japanese courses that have nothing to do with the US education system.
I was going to say. We were taught this in elementary school. I always thought it was a waste of time and could do it in my head.
I don't think that I was taught this but... there were lots of things that I just glossed over because they didn't make sense (as in... we already knew the material, why are we doing busy work.)
Then you failed to understand the concept being taught. You glossed over it think you were better than everyone else. Instead you lacked a basic understanding of math and made up for it with rote memorization.
That's quite the assumption. I certainly didn't think that I was better than anyone. I was the dumb kid in school. Always did terribly on tests. But I understood the math.
Honestly, this is very mean spirited. This is what school was like for me. If I did well at something, people tear you down for being "better". If you are bad at something, they call you dumb. I can't memorize, it's something I just can't do. Rote memorization is something I almost completely lack. Your statement is the farthest thing from describing my situation. I actually have a mental problem with memorization and its one of the reasons I was such a bad student, I simply cannot retain information that I do not understand and most of the teaching in school was solely around memorization.
I would describe this as a conceptual learner which is what I consider myself
Probably not to my level. When I was 17, after ten years of being the worst guitar student in the world, my teacher and I discovered that I had zero ability to memorize or remember music. I have muscle memory, I can mostly remember titles and stuff, but the music itself... zero. I literally can't remember a tone from one second to another. It's just a brain problem.
Ten years of playing guitar with a private teacher to discover that. It changed my life. One of the most dramatic moments ever. It totally changed how I viewed myself and life challenges. It sucked, but only kind of. Mostly it just explained why I was so bad at things. I could never, EVER memorize a song or sing along or play without music in front of me (I can read music, just not remember it) or stay in tune or improvise. Not in the least.
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Imagine... ten years of "why aren't you practising more" and no matter how much I did always getting the same thing. It's like the slow kid being told to "study harder" when they have a serious learning disability. I really thought that I was lazy but couldn't put in more time realistically and it just sucked. Suddenly I went from the worst student ever to the star pupil and ended up doing guitar performance at university - even after my high school music teacher and my guidance counselor told me I couldn't even get into college.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@wirestyle22 said:
I think the standards for what we consider to be 'average' would greatly increase if we paid gifted teachers to teach our children.
You may be correct but I don't think so. I mean, it would help slightly, but much? Not likely. In every large population you need a lot of workers and very few thinkers. Tiny places can work hard and skew this (Luxembourg) but large places cannot much.
The vast majority of jobs will not ever benefit from a great degree of education and the majority of people will be happiest not having jobs that would require them to do so. Just look at IT! We think that we are an elite field, but read SW and sadly, it seems that most people are offended if you even suggest that they need to learn something or think critically about it. They want to do a minimum effort, learn things by rote and never have to think about what they are doing.
Just like we said in another thread - to us the idea of not striving to improve ourselves is terrible. But to the average person, striving to improve themselves is what is terrible. It's painful and wasted effort.
You don't have to be an intellectual though. As I said, this applies to vocational school to teach skill based jobs. My Dad (RIP) wasn't a book smart man but he did welding, carpentry, heating and air conditioning, electrical work, you name it he could do it. He was a genius in his own way. I think that the vast majority of the population has something they can excel at.
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@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@wirestyle22 said:
I think the standards for what we consider to be 'average' would greatly increase if we paid gifted teachers to teach our children.
You may be correct but I don't think so. I mean, it would help slightly, but much? Not likely. In every large population you need a lot of workers and very few thinkers. Tiny places can work hard and skew this (Luxembourg) but large places cannot much.
The vast majority of jobs will not ever benefit from a great degree of education and the majority of people will be happiest not having jobs that would require them to do so. Just look at IT! We think that we are an elite field, but read SW and sadly, it seems that most people are offended if you even suggest that they need to learn something or think critically about it. They want to do a minimum effort, learn things by rote and never have to think about what they are doing.
Just like we said in another thread - to us the idea of not striving to improve ourselves is terrible. But to the average person, striving to improve themselves is what is terrible. It's painful and wasted effort.
You don't have to be an intellectual though. As I said, this applies to vocational school to teach skill based jobs. My Dad (RIP) wasn't a book smart man but he did welding, carpentry, heating and air conditioning, electrical work, you name it he could do it. I think that the vast majority of the population has something they can excel at.
yes, if high schools would have serious vocational programs (and some do) I think that that is a great thing. There are tons and tons of fields (IT included) that could be taught at that age and produce ready to work kids at 16 years old ready to start in the field.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Imagine... ten years of "why aren't you practising more" and no matter how much I did always getting the same thing. It's like the slow kid being told to "study harder" when they have a serious learning disability. I really thought that I was lazy but couldn't put in more time realistically and it just sucked. Suddenly I went from the worst student ever to the star pupil and ended up doing guitar performance at university - even after my high school music teacher and my guidance counselor told me I couldn't even get into college.
I thought when I was younger that I had a learning disability because I asked so many questions. I realized later on that the teachers weren't using language specific enough for me. There was too much variability in their speech and I was thinking of all the possibilities of what they meant. I took AP courses in HS. You never know what you're capable of.
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@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Imagine... ten years of "why aren't you practising more" and no matter how much I did always getting the same thing. It's like the slow kid being told to "study harder" when they have a serious learning disability. I really thought that I was lazy but couldn't put in more time realistically and it just sucked. Suddenly I went from the worst student ever to the star pupil and ended up doing guitar performance at university - even after my high school music teacher and my guidance counselor told me I couldn't even get into college.
I thought when I was younger that I had a learning disability because I asked so many questions. I realized later on that the teachers weren't using language specific enough for me. There was too much variability in their speech and I was thinking of all the possibilities of what they meant. I took AP courses in HS. You never know what you're capable of.
Sounds like you went to an American public school. Glad you graduated, you could have just as easily been stuck into special ed, which can almost prepare you to be a lifelong fast food employee.
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As someone with 3 very bad learning disabilities. Standard school sucks. However I had 2 awesome teachers that taught me how I learn. And to take how I was taught and to make sense of it all. Of course the other 20 teachers I had before that just called me mentally retarded to my face. To say school sucked for me is a under statement.
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And for many, I think just working makes more sense. How many people who, for example, work at the front desk of a hotel as an adult (I did this, I think it's a decent job) would have benefited by starting in that career or one related to it at 14 and getting experience and money when they were younger and contributing to a skill that they could use later in life. They could be fully trained and experienced and ready to be fully qualified adult workers by 16 or 17 and have a long career with a vastly higher lifetime income than the current system which encourages then to not start that career until they have a college degree of worthless information at keeps them out of the workforce until they are 22. That's eight years of making money traded in and four years of losing money. That's huge.
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@RojoLoco said:
@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Imagine... ten years of "why aren't you practising more" and no matter how much I did always getting the same thing. It's like the slow kid being told to "study harder" when they have a serious learning disability. I really thought that I was lazy but couldn't put in more time realistically and it just sucked. Suddenly I went from the worst student ever to the star pupil and ended up doing guitar performance at university - even after my high school music teacher and my guidance counselor told me I couldn't even get into college.
I thought when I was younger that I had a learning disability because I asked so many questions. I realized later on that the teachers weren't using language specific enough for me. There was too much variability in their speech and I was thinking of all the possibilities of what they meant. I took AP courses in HS. You never know what you're capable of.
Sounds like you went to an American public school. Glad you graduated, you could have just as easily been stuck into special ed, which can almost prepare you to be a lifelong fast food employee.
Honestly it was my Grandfather and my Dad who saw greatness in me. Without them I never would've achieved anything.
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@scottalanmiller Vocational training would have made all the difference for lots of people. I would have thrived doing that instead of giving up on highschool and quitting.
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@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Imagine... ten years of "why aren't you practising more" and no matter how much I did always getting the same thing. It's like the slow kid being told to "study harder" when they have a serious learning disability. I really thought that I was lazy but couldn't put in more time realistically and it just sucked. Suddenly I went from the worst student ever to the star pupil and ended up doing guitar performance at university - even after my high school music teacher and my guidance counselor told me I couldn't even get into college.
I thought when I was younger that I had a learning disability because I asked so many questions. I realized later on that the teachers weren't using language specific enough for me. There was too much variability in their speech and I was thinking of all the possibilities of what they meant. I took AP courses in HS. You never know what you're capable of.
I learned early on that my teachers did not know the material. They had often learned it by rote and any questions or clarification would take them off of the rails.
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@Minion-Queen said:
@scottalanmiller Vocational training would have made all the difference for lots of people. I would have thrived doing that instead of giving up on highschool and quitting.
They had it, but not for many useful things. Auto mechanic was about it.
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@wirestyle22 said:
@RojoLoco said:
@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Imagine... ten years of "why aren't you practising more" and no matter how much I did always getting the same thing. It's like the slow kid being told to "study harder" when they have a serious learning disability. I really thought that I was lazy but couldn't put in more time realistically and it just sucked. Suddenly I went from the worst student ever to the star pupil and ended up doing guitar performance at university - even after my high school music teacher and my guidance counselor told me I couldn't even get into college.
I thought when I was younger that I had a learning disability because I asked so many questions. I realized later on that the teachers weren't using language specific enough for me. There was too much variability in their speech and I was thinking of all the possibilities of what they meant. I took AP courses in HS. You never know what you're capable of.
Sounds like you went to an American public school. Glad you graduated, you could have just as easily been stuck into special ed, which can almost prepare you to be a lifelong fast food employee.
Honestly it was my Grandfather and my Dad who saw greatness in me. Without them I never would've achieved anything.
I thank my Mom for knowing that sending me to public school would have been tragic (she was a public school teacher and knew that I was smarter than 90% of the teachers in the county by the time I was 5).
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@scottalanmiller said:
And for many, I think just working makes more sense. How many people who, for example, work at the front desk of a hotel as an adult (I did this, I think it's a decent job) would have benefited by starting in that career or one related to it at 14 and getting experience and money when they were younger and contributing to a skill that they could use later in life. They could be fully trained and experienced and ready to be fully qualified adult workers by 16 or 17 and have a long career with a vastly higher lifetime income than the current system which encourages then to not start that career until they have a college degree of worthless information at keeps them out of the workforce until they are 22. That's eight years of making money traded in and four years of losing money. That's huge.
That's actually how the Amish around here do things, and it works well. My younger cousins are getting married and paying cash for a house by about the same time I was getting my Associates degree.
