Chopping off their own feet....
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@Bill-Kindle no question that there is some pent up resentment going on all over the place. Small MSPs want the big ones removed. Vendors want them all removed. IT pros want the MSPs to stay and the vendors to leave.
The problem is that they need too much revenue to support the ecosystem and trying to get everyone to pay isn't going to work. The whole point is that the product is free. So people who don't want to pay is the common denominator.
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@Bill-Kindle said:
@scottalanmiller
I'm not even sure it's cult, some just seems like pent up rage and jealousy that's festered for a long long time just now coming to a head..@scottalanmiller makes me jealous but I won't hold that against him
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The scale is a major issue. ML has a part time staff of two mods and one guy ( me) handling some tech stuff once in a while. That's it. They have hundreds of full time people and big offices and huge datacenter needs. That's a lot if mouths to feed based on the same product (a free community.)
You can see the panic. Web advertising from a single site is a scary thing to depend on. If traffic decreases and anyone finds out, the vendors flee and the contraction rate will be scary.
That's why a lot if the issues exist. Encouraging traffic, making vendors happy... That's all that there is.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@IRJ said:
@RAM. said:
@Bill-Kindle I'm not trying to high light any major issues, I'm trying to keep it as vague as possible as there are some people who legitimately try and some of which I consider friends.
@IRJ One thing I disagree with you on is the fact you're going to require a staff dedicated to that purpose, or take them away from their regularly scheduled duties, and you'd have to decide whose job is the most worthless you can take them off of it to set up a webinar.
True, but in the grand scheme of things its a very small price to pay for advertising.
Sure IF you are charging for advertising which was the crux of the issue.
I meant they should see it as advertising SW, not necessarily the vendor itself. I just believe the for the amount of cost, it takes to do this they will make more in the long run by attracting new members of the community. You said they have good numbers, but they dont have a strong percentage of experts. Aren't the webinars what brings the experts into the community? I mean if you are new to SW, and you see all these people asking dumb questions, isnt it going to turn you off? What value do you as an expert get out of SW?
I can find free webinars given by vendors all day long. Generally those webinars have another motive of selling you a product so I am weary of attending them. Why cant SW offer vendor free webinars to help attract the experts to the forum? After all that is what they lack, neutral experts.
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@scottalanmiller I don't think the small scale of ML is going to be an issue for a while. The reality is that everyone who is here, is here for a reason, we have some form of disagreeance with the other site. We are either dedicated, or ignorant to a bigger picture, and the way I see it. Everyone who is here now, is dedicated.
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@IRJ think about how advertising SW would work. Lots of money to get ten people who found the webinar through SW to find.... SW?
They'd get no benefit from that. It would be all people who are already customers.
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@RAM. said:
@scottalanmiller I don't think the small scale of ML is going to be an issue for a while. The reality is that everyone who is here, is here for a reason, we have some form of disagreeance with the other site. We are either dedicated, or ignorant to a bigger picture, and the way I see it. Everyone who is here now, is dedicated.
It won't be. We designed the architecture to scale past the scale that SW sees without needing any additional resources from a human standpoint. Because we don't tollgate vendors and MSPs a lot of the overhead goes away.
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@IRJ said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@IRJ said:
@RAM. said:
@Bill-Kindle I'm not trying to high light any major issues, I'm trying to keep it as vague as possible as there are some people who legitimately try and some of which I consider friends.
@IRJ One thing I disagree with you on is the fact you're going to require a staff dedicated to that purpose, or take them away from their regularly scheduled duties, and you'd have to decide whose job is the most worthless you can take them off of it to set up a webinar.
True, but in the grand scheme of things its a very small price to pay for advertising.
Sure IF you are charging for advertising which was the crux of the issue.
I meant they should see it as advertising SW, not necessarily the vendor itself. I just believe the for the amount of cost, it takes to do this they will make more in the long run by attracting new members of the community. You said they have good numbers, but they dont have a strong percentage of experts. Aren't the webinars what brings the experts into the community? I mean if you are new to SW, and you see all these people asking dumb questions, isnt it going to turn you off? What value do you as an expert get out of SW?
I can find free webinars given by vendors all day long. Generally those webinars have another motive of selling you a product so I am weary of attending them. Why cant SW offer vendor free webinars to help attract the experts to the forum? After all that is what they lack, neutral experts.
I use it to get direct access to vendors and other IT Pro's. I also like to help people out as much as possible to "pay it forward" if you will. That's it.
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@RAM. said:
@scottalanmiller I don't think the small scale of ML is going to be an issue for a while. The reality is that everyone who is here, is here for a reason, we have some form of disagreeance with the other site. We are either dedicated, or ignorant to a bigger picture, and the way I see it. Everyone who is here now, is dedicated.
Not all of us have a disagreement with SW.
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@alexntg said:
@RAM. said:
@scottalanmiller I don't think the small scale of ML is going to be an issue for a while. The reality is that everyone who is here, is here for a reason, we have some form of disagreeance with the other site. We are either dedicated, or ignorant to a bigger picture, and the way I see it. Everyone who is here now, is dedicated.
Not all of us have a disagreement with SW.
No. However as part of NTG you were on their proposed banish list. So while you might be okay with them, they sure are not okay with you. You especially should be upset because you were one of the ones singled out, and still singled out, for special punishment.
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I still like Spiceworks too. But many of the issues were around them not wanting us, not us not wanting them. We only looked for another place to post after we were threatened with not being allowed to post there anymore.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@alexntg said:
@RAM. said:
@scottalanmiller I don't think the small scale of ML is going to be an issue for a while. The reality is that everyone who is here, is here for a reason, we have some form of disagreeance with the other site. We are either dedicated, or ignorant to a bigger picture, and the way I see it. Everyone who is here now, is dedicated.
Not all of us have a disagreement with SW.
No. However as part of NTG you were on their proposed banish list. So while you might be okay with them, they sure are not okay with you. You especially should be upset because you were one of the ones singled out, and still singled out, for special punishment.
I was one of the people (if not the only one) that agreed that if an MSP wanted to be able to market in any fashion, they should be a partner of one sort or another. It would also open them up to be able to openly market to others.
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@alexntg said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@alexntg said:
@RAM. said:
@scottalanmiller I don't think the small scale of ML is going to be an issue for a while. The reality is that everyone who is here, is here for a reason, we have some form of disagreeance with the other site. We are either dedicated, or ignorant to a bigger picture, and the way I see it. Everyone who is here now, is dedicated.
Not all of us have a disagreement with SW.
No. However as part of NTG you were on their proposed banish list. So while you might be okay with them, they sure are not okay with you. You especially should be upset because you were one of the ones singled out, and still singled out, for special punishment.
I was one of the people (if not the only one) that agreed that if an MSP wanted to be able to market in any fashion, they should be a partner of one sort or another. It would also open them up to be able to openly market to others.
Yes but were you aware that they were talking about banning most of NTG's staff even if we were a partner and that the cost to be a partner was many times the value potential? So regardless of your position and opinion, you were in their crosshairs. Had your supported idea had been approved, you'd have been banned.
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Charging MSPs in a place where nearly all participants are other MSPs doesn't work. All you do is initiate a witch hunt. Already people are looking to lynch anyone that they don't like for recommending anyone who isn't a vendor.
It's encouraging a system where if you don't pay to advertise your product can't be recommended. If someone recommends product X or vendor Y and that company doesn't pay for ads, people jump all over even veteran community members and accuse them of working for that vendor.
It's like the red scare. Don't like someone, just accuse them of working for an MSP or vendor. That's all it takes. Just accuse.
There is no way to know who does and doesn't work at an MSP. So all that is going to happen is real MSPs will lie about who they are and honest IT pros will be threatened and beaten down unless they tow the line and only promote paid vendors.
That's what making MSPs pay to participate in the community is already doing.
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Don't forget that the MSPs provide the bulk of the content that makes them their money. MSPs have always "paid" by giving away valuable content.
MSPs equally could ask why they aren't being paid to participate. Until recently it was symbiotic. MSPs give content in exchange for a minuscule amount of advertising. MSPs give way more than they gain. It was not the MSPs getting the free ride. The benefit was almost all one sided then then tried to take even more.
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Here's my 2.2 cents (incl GST) <Au tax joke>
This crap happens everywhere that there is an Internet based community. Very common in gaming communities (egotistical arrogance & intolerance mixed with egotistical pre-pubescent arrogance & intolerance... same as the former but magnified. Think XBOX Live).
Same crap different bucket... same dog, different tree... etc We all know the story:
One group will set up a Haven of Righteous Intentions (not directed ant any ons site. It's a blanket term I'll use to describe any forum/community on the Internet) only to be infiltrated and brought down to squabbling, infighting and back stabbing.
To combat this, the Haven of Righteous Intentions (HRI) can add moderation/moderators who more often than not, deploy the concrete donkey of ban (image 1.1) upon the person who dare defile the HRI <optional: insert reason here>. Like intra-veinous caffiene, this is an insta-fix but fills the baldder faster... users get pissed and leave (puns!).
Then the sneaky self righteous back stabbers manage to infiltrate and either get into positions of power or raise an angry mob and the HRI is turned into a shadow war of snarky comments, "I'm not talking to you", assassination plots and other school yard antics that we were supposed to leave behind after graduation. Hydra is everywhere.
Somewhere along the line, comprimising consessions to the HRI are made to soothe ruffled feathers or to attract the floating clouds of cash (sponsors, vendors, investors etc) and the community begins to change. Sometimes, this is a good change but usually this is a bad thing and it then makes things worse.
Then the split happens and a new HRI is formed. The trick of setting up a successful HRI split/offshoot is to look long and hard at the founding principles and culture. A nation born out of infighting & rebellion will always have issues with infighting & rebellion UNLESS there is a culture change and the founding principles are written with a better future in mind, the means to get there and not solely based on the past and present conflicts.
I really like SW and I hang out there a lot but I am concerned with the fanboi-ism and "Hail SW" that I have noticed lurking in the shadows. I find it disturbing when a company or a person (in general, not directed at anyone) always has the "I'm happy and everything is awesome" mask on. I have allergies to BS and I know when something isn't right. Something is wrong at SW but I'm not sure that it's the community (it is possible that it's the one displaying the symptoms and copping all the crap). I think that there are deeper issues.
In saying all that, I'll still continue to hang out at SW and help out when I can because I like it but I have concerns. My Spidey sense is tingling.
Don't forget:
"You have to get behind someone before you can stab them in the back" - Yes Minister (ReferenceImage 1.1
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The issues are definitely not the community. I'm surprised at how many people are shocked by the moderation issues. They are bad, but it's just moderation and I never thought that it was very big but a lot of people are seriously miffed about it. There are or were so many much more massive issues that the moderation issues are, to me, just background noise. I forget that for a lot of people, those are the ones that matter.
The community has declined and changed, no question there. The approach and attitudes are not what they used to be. The goal of the community has been changed and that obviously is a big part. But the community has changed some too. It is still a great community, but not the same one that it used to be.
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There is something different at SW. As to the moderation stuff, I dropped being a mod primarily because I was tired of hearing so many people bitch about it. Like others, I just enjoy helping others. I do miss some of the powers though when I see a post in the wrong forum. It is going to be interesting this coming Spiceworld. Might be my last, but we'll have to see.
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@DenisKelley said:
. It is going to be interesting this coming Spiceworld. Might be my last, but we'll have to see.
Unless someone drags me kicking and screaming, I don't plan on going this year. The previous two years I went because the ticket was free, but I didn't get anything out of the content.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Don't forget that the MSPs provide the bulk of the content that makes them their money. MSPs have always "paid" by giving away valuable content.
MSPs equally could ask why they aren't being paid to participate. Until recently it was symbiotic. MSPs give content in exchange for a minuscule amount of advertising. MSPs give way more than they gain. It was not the MSPs getting the free ride. The benefit was almost all one sided then then tried to take even more.
I would guess that most MSPs are very geographical. I mean an MSP in Texas can advertise to me all he wants, I'm not got employ him when he's five thousand miles away. Whereas most vendors sell all over the world.
The geography is what I love most about SW. My boss asks me how I fixed the server last night, and I'll say "Oh, some guy in Montreal sorted it out for me. For free."
