Medical Insurance in the US
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@scottalanmiller said:
I know people who have found no healthcare insurance (even with the tax penalties) to be cheaper and safer than paying for insurance. It's surprising how useless the insurance actually is. How often does anyone actually get protected by it? Run the numbers, you might be surprised how easily it can be dropped.
We've chatted offline about this, so you know how I feel about health insurance.
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@BRRABill said:
We've chatted offline about this, so you know how I feel about health insurance.
Feeling aside, do the math. We have and the math says that many insurance options are literally negatives even in worst case scenarios.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Feeling aside, do the math. We have and the math says that many insurance options are literally negatives even in worst case scenarios.
Would love to discuss that in another thread if you'd like to start it.
Our costs are pretty high each year.
And I don't know how you'd ever deal with a catastrophic event. Or even semi-, like when my daughter had her appendix out last year.
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@BRRABill said:
And I don't know how you'd ever deal with a catastrophic event. Or even semi-, like when my daughter had her appendix out last year.
I've had my appendix out and the cost was less than what I would pay in insurance per year. So you'd simply deal with that by saving carefully for a year and then you are covered.
Since most insurance has a cap that is pretty low, catastrophic events aren't covered at all.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@BRRABill said:
And I don't know how you'd ever deal with a catastrophic event. Or even semi-, like when my daughter had her appendix out last year.
I've had my appendix out and the cost was less than what I would pay in insurance per year. So you'd simply deal with that by saving carefully for a year and then you are covered.
Since most insurance has a cap that is pretty low, catastrophic events aren't covered at all.
A single brown recluse spider bite can run the bill into 100k+ range, so without insurance you're bankrupt. My wife just got antibiotics for IBS, 30 day supply cost 2k.
Where did you have that appendix procedure? In NY, a day in hospital cost over 2k, anesthesiologist will change at least 1k for simple procedure, add surgeon and other costs and you're probably getting close to 4-5k. You can buy whole year insurance for less.About that cap, catastrophic events have to be covered, it's the law:
https://www.healthcare.gov/health-care-law-protections/lifetime-and-yearly-limits/
https://www.healthcare.gov/coverage/what-marketplace-plans-cover/ -
@marcinozga said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@BRRABill said:
And I don't know how you'd ever deal with a catastrophic event. Or even semi-, like when my daughter had her appendix out last year.
I've had my appendix out and the cost was less than what I would pay in insurance per year. So you'd simply deal with that by saving carefully for a year and then you are covered.
Since most insurance has a cap that is pretty low, catastrophic events aren't covered at all.
A single brown recluse spider bite can run the bill into 100k+ range, so without insurance you're bankrupt. My wife just got antibiotics for IBS, 30 day supply cost 2k.
Where did you have that appendix procedure? In NY, a day in hospital cost over 2k, anesthesiologist will change at least 1k for simple procedure, add surgeon and other costs and you're probably getting close to 4-5k. You can buy whole year insurance for less.Scott's claim is sure, you can buy whole year insurance for less, but not one that covers an appendix removal.
Though I think Scott just has had crappy insurance everytime he's tried to use it.
I have BCBS and they are awesome - sure high premiums - I think my office pays something like $5-8K year for me, and on top of that I have a $5K deductible.
As a very low user of insurance this is good for me - when I had eye surgery a few years ago - I hit my $5K limit and I didn't another penny that year. -
@Dashrender said:
@marcinozga said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@BRRABill said:
And I don't know how you'd ever deal with a catastrophic event. Or even semi-, like when my daughter had her appendix out last year.
I've had my appendix out and the cost was less than what I would pay in insurance per year. So you'd simply deal with that by saving carefully for a year and then you are covered.
Since most insurance has a cap that is pretty low, catastrophic events aren't covered at all.
A single brown recluse spider bite can run the bill into 100k+ range, so without insurance you're bankrupt. My wife just got antibiotics for IBS, 30 day supply cost 2k.
Where did you have that appendix procedure? In NY, a day in hospital cost over 2k, anesthesiologist will change at least 1k for simple procedure, add surgeon and other costs and you're probably getting close to 4-5k. You can buy whole year insurance for less.Scott's claim is sure, you can buy whole year insurance for less, but not one that covers an appendix removal.
Appendix removal is considered essential health benefit and must be covered by all insurance plans offered in healthcare marketplace. And as such is not subject to any caps or limits.
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@marcinozga said:
A single brown recluse spider bite can run the bill into 100k+ range, so without insurance you're bankrupt. My wife just got antibiotics for IBS, 30 day supply cost 2k.
That math doesn't hold up. I had to pay $35K for health insurance (plus other costs on top, so over $40K per year when no one was even sick) and that's just the normal cost of my health insurance when I lived in Texas. So in three years, I was paying $120K, more than your bankrupting brown recluse bite. So clearly, a brown recluse bite, at that price, out of pocket would have saved me money. $20K, in fact.
And that antibiotic at $2K? That's still less every month than my insurance was. So while your prices are high, you are proving that even your example disaster scenarios are so much cheaper than the health insurance that I feel my position is that much stronger.
Plus when you don't have insurance your costs are generally much lower. What is $100K with insurance is often $30K without. So those numbers aren't really valid, but even so, they show that the insurance was failing.
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@marcinozga said:
Appendix removal is considered essential health benefit and must be covered by all insurance plans offered in healthcare marketplace. And as such is not subject to any caps or limits.
Good luck with that in real life.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@marcinozga said:
A single brown recluse spider bite can run the bill into 100k+ range, so without insurance you're bankrupt. My wife just got antibiotics for IBS, 30 day supply cost 2k.
That math doesn't hold up. I had to pay $35K for health insurance (plus other costs on top, so over $40K per year when no one was even sick) and that's just the normal cost of my health insurance when I lived in Texas. So in three years, I was paying $120K, more than your bankrupting brown recluse bite. So clearly, a brown recluse bite, at that price, out of pocket would have saved me money. $20K, in fact.
And that antibiotic at $2K? That's still less every month than my insurance was. So while your prices are high, you are proving that even your example disaster scenarios are so much cheaper than the health insurance that I feel my position is that much stronger.
Plus when you don't have insurance your costs are generally much lower. What is $100K with insurance is often $30K without. So those numbers aren't really valid, but even so, they show that the insurance was failing.
You simply overpaid for your insurance.
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@marcinozga said:
You simply overpaid for your insurance.
Only insurance option that I had. Called every company I could find. Went through brokers. Even professional brokers said that I had no options. If you are saying I overpaid, you are agreeing with everything I've said. I literally had no option except that price or no insurance. Even the state couldn't help. Even the brokers said that there were no other options.
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I face similar problems now. There is no insurance plan available that both covers my family and satisfies the Obamacare requirements. We've looked, there isn't a single one. If we want to be insured we have to pay twice, no matter what. Cheaper to be uninsured and have the financial resources to cover medical expenses.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@marcinozga said:
Appendix removal is considered essential health benefit and must be covered by all insurance plans offered in healthcare marketplace. And as such is not subject to any caps or limits.
Good luck with that in real life.
There's an army of lawyers ready to jump on cases like that.
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@Dashrender said:
With email, I can get you to install malware and now I'm seeing everything on your computer, including your email - do you can't attack a fax machine like that.
I disagree because physical access is trivially easy in comparison. Getting malware to grab email to a targeted, rather than random, location is very hard. Tapping a phone line is so easy that the phone company has equipment that "just does this." It's not even tapping, it's a standard diagnostic system. It's actually "within operational parameters."
Email doesn't have to live on your computer like that. By that extension, you could say that faxes end up in the garbage or you could see them sitting on a desk. Faxes remain less secure inside the office too, but that's not what we are talking about. After the fax has gone through it is paper, not a fax. And once email has been received it is a file, not email. What if the email printed out and never got saved to a file, that's an option. but we would never do that because it is less secure. But that's where a fax starts.
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@Dashrender said:
The side channel communication method adds a layer of insulation, if not actual protection.
While relatively minor, how is extra insulation different from protection?
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What do you mean pay twice?
How can there be no coverage? because you aren't living in the US?
$40K - holy hell - Texas must just be screwing it's people over like crazy.. I've never hear of a family plan costing $40K/yr to cover a family of 4. Did you have every pre-existing condition in the book? and they are hedging their bets on that?
I have asthma, a history of asthma attacks, and still my insurance (at least through my employer) is $8k'ish plus the high deductable.. no where near $40K
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
What you do stand a good chance of doing though, is choosing the wrong fax number from a contact list to send to, but like email, that's not any more or less dangerous.
That part is true. But still more dangerous than a phone call where you get a second opportunity to verify.
But no matter what, fax remains the most insecure tool. You can consider it "secure enough" but if you do, everything is secure enough.
Well, this is a statement to what you've said before about regulation... It really does work to make things less secure, not more. But I can tell you in health care, it wouldn't matter.
Oh speaking of healthcare - how do european doctors share information between each other?
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@Dashrender said:
What do you mean pay twice?
How can there be no coverage? because you aren't living in the US?
$40K - holy hell - Texas must just be screwing it's people over like crazy.. I've never hear of a family plan costing $40K/yr to cover a family of 4. Did you have every pre-existing condition in the book? and they are hedging their bets on that?
I have asthma, a history of asthma attacks, and still my insurance (at least through my employer) is $8k'ish plus the high deductable.. no where near $40K
Pre-existing conditions shouldn't matter anymore. That's one part that obamacare got right.
https://www.healthcare.gov/coverage/pre-existing-conditions/ -
@Dashrender said:
What do you mean pay twice?
I'd have to pay once for insurance to satisfy the Obamacare requirement. Then pay again for insurance that covers my family as there is no plan that does both. So two plans are needed.
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@Dashrender said:
$40K - holy hell - Texas must just be screwing it's people over like crazy.. I've never hear of a family plan costing $40K/yr to cover a family of 4. Did you have every pre-existing condition in the book? and they are hedging their bets on that?
Has nothing to do with Texas. It's the US Fed that doesn't provide protection for all people. It's even been spoken about in Congress, I think, that there were major oversights with big gaps for people like me without any coverage offered but penalties levied anyway.
