Offsite Backup Solution Needed



  • Hey guys.

    Hoping someone might have some good suggestions for me.

    We are trying to do an offsite backup, we got a dedicated 5/5 line (ya we know not the best line)

    I've tried Veeam but the snapshots killed us (literally crashed a server) we use Symantec Backup on site, doesnt seem to be able to handle doing it offsite though.

    Any suggestions for something more specifically for long slow transfers, maybe something that caches (where I decide) and not a snapshot

    Thanks

    EDIT:
    Backing up 5 hosts with a bunch of VM's (VMWare)
    Backing up to one of our store locations



  • What are you trying to backup, I'm guessing your VM's.

    If so can you back them up to a local storage unit like a Synology NAS, and use that as the push device for your off-site?

    A 5/5 line is pretty slow but should be enough if your only doing delta backups to whatever you have offsite.

    As for off-site what are you trying to backup to, another location or a storage provider like Amazon or BackBlaze?



  • Crashplan would also work for this.



  • Sorry I'll add more info to my original post as well.

    Yep, backing up 5 hosts (VMWare) with a bunch of VM's each

    Its going to one of our retail locations that has just a simple Synology there actually.

    "If so can you back them up to a local storage unit like a Synology NAS, and use that as the push device for your off-site?"
    I guess the best answer I can give to this is we'll do what we have to



  • @Sparkum But going to one of your retail locations is not the same as going to something on the same LAN.

    If you can get a Synology NAS in house with your servers, and backup to that first, and have that push the backups to your retail location you should be better off.



  • @dafyre

    We need the speed though.

    If the building blows up we drive over and get the data



  • @DustinB3403 said:

    @Sparkum But going to one of your retail locations is not the same as going to something on the same LAN.

    If you can get a Synology NAS in house with your servers, and backup to that first, and have that push the backups to your retail location you should be better off.

    Is there a built in feature with Synology is that why you are saying that/that brand or just simply for the fact that it can sit on the Synology until the backups complete.



  • The speed of recovery is not an issue here.

    What you need to do to get a faster "off-site" is to backup to something local that can handle the upload to your Retail location.

    @Sparkum said:

    @DustinB3403 said:

    @Sparkum But going to one of your retail locations is not the same as going to something on the same LAN.

    If you can get a Synology NAS in house with your servers, and backup to that first, and have that push the backups to your retail location you should be better off.

    Is there a built in feature with Synology is that why you are saying that/that brand or just simply for the fact that it can sit on the Synology until the backups complete.

    The Backup's to a local NAS (whatever brand) just using Synology as they're pretty good units is that the Backup process will run at the speed of the LAN. Versus the speed of your Internet.

    Which should be way faster (1GBps) and then once the backup finishes, let it take all night to upload to your other location.



  • Rather than trying to perform your nightly backups over your 5/5 you'd backup to a local NAS first. Once the backup finishes it kicks off the job to push that night's backup to your other location.



  • I agree with Dustin, Backup local first, then sync/push to a remote location.

    I think Veeam paid will do this. You create the backup to any kind of NAS you like, then you a sync process that syncs the local backup store to a remote one.



  • Additionally, by using a local NAS, you could take multiple backups during the day if you wanted, and only push the last backup of the day over the sync connection.



  • So I guess the next question is then, with what software.

    So Symantec has essentially that option built in

    "Upon completion replicate to"

    But the problem I was having is I would do the backup, and the replication would take so long that 1 or 2 backups would then fail, creating this large snowball affect (That I do assume would eventually fix itself as initial backup completed and we moved onto small partial backups...))



  • Can you bring the other NAS onsite to your location, seed the initial backup locally fast, then take it back, and do sync's only?



  • @Sparkum Veeam should do this for you.... but as you've describe you're attempting to backup however many VM's you have in one shot, over your 5/5 internet connection.

    This will never work.

    If you change your backup target from your Retail location, to a on-premise NAS that will create your daily backups.

    Fulls or whatever (presumably you're not creating full backups nightly, but maybe) and then on the NAS you create a replicate job to run once the backups are done.



  • @DustinB3403 said:

    @Sparkum Veeam should do this for you.... but as you've describe you're attempting to backup however many VM's you have in one shot, over your 5/5 internet connection.

    This will never work.

    If you change your backup target from your Retail location, to a on-premise NAS that will create your daily backups.

    Fulls or whatever (presumably you're not creating full backups nightly, but maybe) and then on the NAS you create a replicate job to run once the backups are done.

    By no means was it in one shot.

    I was going server by server, 2 worked successfully, the third the snapshot outgrew the server and crashed it.

    My IDEAL would be to be able to do a full virtual backup that I could just turn on if shit hit the fan.



  • @Dashrender said:

    Can you bring the other NAS onsite to your location, seed the initial backup locally fast, then take it back, and do sync's only?

    Yes, and the only reason I havent done this yet is because jobs are running for ~12 hours, failing, having only backed up like 8GB.....not even enough to be an incremental backup yet.



  • It's still effectively one shot (unless you're running this by hand)

    The best solution would be to get another NAS on premise, have this take the load of your backups daily, and then have the same NAS push to your retail location's NAS.

    It should have more then enough space for your backups.

    Are you performing full backups daily, or what?


  • Service Provider

    You will need to use Replication not Backup. Additionally, you will likely need to make a local seed replica first then move it offsite and resume replication.

    Paid Veeam can do this for VMWare or Hyper-V using the backup sets.

    VMWare can do this natively with the right subscription I believe.

    Hyper-V can do this natively with no additional licensing.

    I would assume XS can do it natively, but you need a tool like XO to make it easy to do.


  • Service Provider

    @DustinB3403 said:

    The best solution would be to get another NAS on premise, have this take the load of your backups daily, and then have the same NAS push to your retail location.

    This is not a good solution. The first time you ever make a new full backup you kill the internet.



  • Well he'd be making the full onsite, and seeding to the other (left that part out) with both NAS on premise.

    Removing the internet from the picture.


  • Service Provider

    @DustinB3403 said:

    Well he'd be making the full onsite, and seeding to the other (left that part out) with both NAS on premise.

    Removing the internet from the picture.

    But a NAS to NAS replication is still going to transfer a crapton of data when you do a local full backup the first time after everything is seeded and the NAS moved back offsite.

    Replication at the hypervisor level or the VM backup level is needed to provide enough intelligence to transfer replication offsite.



  • Does Veeam Replication create a snapshot though?

    Doing local or not isnt really an issue, swimming in spare hard drive space



  • @JaredBusch said:

    @DustinB3403 said:

    Well he'd be making the full onsite, and seeding to the other (left that part out) with both NAS on premise.

    Removing the internet from the picture.

    But a NAS to NAS replication is still going to transfer a crapton of data when you do a local full backup the first time after everything is seeded and the NAS moved back offsite.

    Replication at the hypervisor level or the VM backup level is needed to provide enough intelligence to transfer replication offsite.

    Why would additional data get sync'd over after the initial seeding? (I'm honestly curious)



  • @Sparkum said:

    Does Veeam Replication create a snapshot though?

    Doing local or not isnt really an issue, swimming in spare hard drive space

    replication works through the backup copy.. it doesn't effect the host at all. i.e. no snapshot on the VM host.



  • @JaredBusch said:

    @DustinB3403 said:

    Well he'd be making the full onsite, and seeding to the other (left that part out) with both NAS on premise.

    Removing the internet from the picture.

    But a NAS to NAS replication is still going to transfer a crapton of data when you do a local full backup the first time after everything is seeded and the NAS moved back offsite.

    Replication at the hypervisor level or the VM backup level is needed to provide enough intelligence to transfer replication offsite.

    WHAT? why would you say that? and now you're talking more about a continuous replication and probably never doing a full reseed.

    and besides, can he even do a hypervisor replication without having a hypervisor in each location?


  • Banned

    @DustinB3403 said:

    What are you trying to backup, I'm guessing your VM's.

    If so can you back them up to a local storage unit like a Synology NAS, and use that as the push device for your off-site?

    Definitely the way to go here. Trying to push backup over 5/5 (depending on amount of data) is gonna be....well tough.

    By no means was it in one shot.

    I was going server by server, 2 worked successfully, the third the **snapshot outgrew the server **and crashed it.

    To be honest, this is not a Veeam issue, it's a storage problem. You'd have the same problem with other software applications that backup at the VM level.

    Replication would be a good idea as mentioned above. However, it doesn't solve your off-site backup issue. It gives you a near-term DR solution. The good thing about replication is that you can multiple restore points and you don't need to run another full once you seed the DR location. You still need an off-site backup solution and even going Forward Incremental, you still need the occasional full which, mentioned above, will kill your Internet. Even looking at doing someone at the NAS level like rsync, you'll likely run into the same situation when the full gets kicked off occasionally.

    Other solution for offs-site would be with tape and Veeam backup copy jobs. Not ideal since you'll need it at multiple locations. You might try using hard drives instead and that can be done with Veeam, but depending on your data retention needs, who knows how many you'd need.



  • Veeam has a system where they suggest new full backups on a regular basis - wither that's actually needed or not, I don't know.

    I use Dell's Appassure - it's a continuous backup - a full is only done one time, unless the backup location become corrupt for some reason (rare). After the single full, only changes are backed up based on the changes.



  • @Dashrender said:

    @JaredBusch said:

    @DustinB3403 said:

    Well he'd be making the full onsite, and seeding to the other (left that part out) with both NAS on premise.

    Removing the internet from the picture.

    But a NAS to NAS replication is still going to transfer a crapton of data when you do a local full backup the first time after everything is seeded and the NAS moved back offsite.

    Replication at the hypervisor level or the VM backup level is needed to provide enough intelligence to transfer replication offsite.

    WHAT? why would you say that? and now you're talking more about a continuous replication and probably never doing a full reseed.

    and besides, can he even do a hypervisor replication without having a hypervisor in each location?

    There will be a server running VMWare at the offsite as well



  • In a similar situation with limited bandwidth like that we just used Symantec to dump to tape. Nice people in a van came by each week to get the tapes.



  • In reading DenisKelley's post and then re-reading JB's post - I suppose you could go for incremental replication at the hypervisor level, but I don't know if that requires a server with a hypervisor on it at the remote location. Be that as it may, it's not a backup, it's a replication of the live system. So you can't go back in time. If the live system gets infected, and that infection is replicated to the DR site, you're done. So again, this is not backup.

    How much data are we talking about?

    You mentioned that your server crashed (I'm assuming your VM host) because it ran out of space due to snapshots?

    Wow - what's your change rate? How much total data do you have?

    I don't know how much extra storage you have on that server, but if you're running it out of space because a snap file is there, damn. Sounds like you have a huge change rate going on. Depending on your change rate, you might not even be able to replicate your backups over night with a 5/5, mathematically it might not work out.



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