Just spit-balling here....



  • Would anyone really consider building a home-brew NAS for backing up their Business infrastructure?

    And I'm not saying going home-brewed to be cheap, just to avoid the name brands. All highly rated server equipment parts and raid controllers with SAS drives (for "cheap" storage).

    Purchase Enterprise Board and CPU
    Enterprise RAID controller
    Enterprise SAS Drives

    The whole 9.

    Or am I just insane?



  • Isn't that the basis of a SAM-SD? Though the SAM-SD would be based on first tier hardware like HP or Dell.



  • Maybe a non profit with lots of spare kit lying around. My boss might send me home for suggesting such nonsense here.



  • @Dashrender Sorry the SMB Business article is quite long, can you give me the summation? (I'm reading it now)

    @RojoLoco Why would a Non-Profit has lots of spare equipment lying around to do this with?



  • I think @scottalanmiller recommends using companies like SuperMicro for their servers and as @DustinB3403 mentioned, using business quality drives... Sounds like the basis of a SAM-SD to me too, lol.



  • I'm surprised that @scottalanmiller hasn't schooled us all on this already lol



  • He has... It's probably in the SMB IT Journal article that @Dashrender sent @DustinB3403 lol.



  • @DustinB3403 said:

    @Dashrender Sorry the SMB Business article is quite long, can you give me the summation? (I'm reading it now)

    @RojoLoco Why would a Non-Profit has lots of spare equipment lying around to do this with?

    Strictly a hypothetical that might explain why. Might be a small biz with a "frugal" owner who won't buy anything new and expects IT to cobble together working solutions out of garbage (non hypothetical, that was an old job I had). My current company feels that data is worth the investment in a turn-key system, but I've worked places where management would have balked at new SAS drives for a homebrew NAS.



  • @dafyre
    From memory, and it's been a few years, Scott always seemed to really want Tier 1 if possible, but if you had to be budget friendly, then yes, Tier 2 like SuperMicro was definitely usable.

    Using a white box as @DustinB3403 suggests to me indicates that you don't value your data. The cost of the hardware for a Teir 1/2 NAS should be significantly lower than the value of your data, unless you just don't care about your data.


  • Service Provider

    @DustinB3403 said:

    Would anyone really consider building a home-brew NAS for backing up their Business infrastructure?

    And I'm not saying going home-brewed to be cheap, just to avoid the name brands. All highly rated server equipment parts and raid controllers with SAS drives (for "cheap" storage).

    Buy an Intel Board and Xeon processor
    Intel RAID controller
    Intel Drives

    The whole 9.

    Or am I just insane?

    I'm not sure what you are saying. Are you trying to say you want a SAM-SD or a cheap, crappy whitebox? You mention Intel, who has a terrible reputation and I would never use their boards and definitely never their RAID controllers (some of the worst in the industry) so I'm guessing the latter. So no, I would never use that for anything, ever.

    Avoiding the "big names" is another way to say "avoiding quality." If you are not trying to be super cheap, why else would you opt for super low quality parts?


  • Service Provider

    @Dashrender said:

    Isn't that the basis of a SAM-SD? Though the SAM-SD would be based on first tier hardware like HP or Dell.

    Right, the SAM-SD concept is to be fully enterprise, never whitebox.



  • I've generally respected Intels product lines and never had any issues with them in the past.

    So being Part Agnostic then the Topic will be revised.


  • Service Provider

    @dafyre said:

    I think @scottalanmiller recommends using companies like SuperMicro for their servers and as @DustinB3403 mentioned, using business quality drives... Sounds like the basis of a SAM-SD to me too, lol.

    Definitely. SuperMicro, Dell and HP are the top choices for a SAM-SD. The original SAM-SD, the Model 0 if you will, was based on the HP Proliant DL585 G2. The first "home" built one was an HP DL185 G5. The most common recommended platform is a Dell R720xd (hit up xByte to get a good price on one.) If you want something huge or unique then SuperMicro is always always the best way to go. But make sure you are getting LSI or Adaptec controllers if you don't go OS software RAID or you will be sorry.


  • Service Provider

    @Dashrender said:

    @dafyre
    From memory, and it's been a few years, Scott always seemed to really want Tier 1 if possible, but if you had to be budget friendly, then yes, Tier 2 like SuperMicro was definitely usable.

    Using a white box as @DustinB3403 suggests to me indicates that you don't value your data. The cost of the hardware for a Teir 1/2 NAS should be significantly lower than the value of your data, unless you just don't care about your data.

    You nailed it. Tier 1 and Tier 2 only. Going with low quality parts saves almost zero money but creates a lot of risk both in failure and compatibility not to mention performance and an inability to get support.


  • Service Provider

    @DustinB3403 said:

    I've generally respected Intels product lines and never had any issues with them in the past.

    So being Part Agnostic then the Topic will be revised.

    Intel makes middle of the road processors (nothing compared to IBM Power or Oracle Sparc) and quite good SSDs and some excellent support chipsets but their quality pretty much ends there. Their motherboards are generic and their RAID cards are literally the example of customers being tricked to get FakeRAID, nearly all Intel RAID products are FakeRAID and some of the worst in that category.


  • Service Provider

    Moving to big name ENTERPRISE parts turns this into a SAM-SD discussion and, yes, I recommend that heavily.


  • Service Provider

    As does the Oracle ZFS team who worked with Eric McAlvin and I to develop the SAM-SD model in 2007.


  • Service Provider

    The SAM-SD approach was based on the work that Sun (now Oracle) did on Thumper.


  • Service Provider

    Sun Thumper.... the predecessor to the SAM-SD

    thumper


  • Service Provider

    The HP Proliant DL585 G2, the first machine that McAlvin and I designed to take on NetApp in a 10,000 node compute cluster for NFS performance in 2007. Used RHEL 5 and NFS 3. Crushed a half million dollar NetApp tuned by the NetApp team directly for the test. This is the SAM-SD 0, it wasn't called a SAM-SD until years later.

    hp proliant dl585 g2



  • @scottalanmiller It was somebody at SW that gave it that name, isn't it?



  • OK so Scott for the purpose of this topic, what hardware vendors meet your Criteria for ENTERPRISE grade equipment that business might build in house?

    IBM Power / Oracle Sparc
    Supermicro / Dell / HP
    LSI or Adaptec

    Any others?


  • Service Provider

    @dafyre said:

    @scottalanmiller It was somebody at SW that gave it that name, isn't it?

    Yes "Limey", Marin Peverly from PA.


  • Service Provider

    The original Reference Design SAM-SD "Model 1" from 2009. The HP Proliant DL185 G5. 14x 3.5" LDD HDs, dual AMD Opterons, SmartArray P400 512MB RAID Controller.

    hp proliant dl185 g5

    @ntg still has the original unit.


  • Service Provider

    @DustinB3403 said:

    OK so Scott for the purpose of this topic, what hardware vendors meet your Criteria for ENTERPRISE grade equipment that business might build in house?

    IBM Power / Oracle Sparc
    Supermicro / Dell / HP
    LSI or Adaptec

    Any others?

    While I'm not fan, Cisco would make the list as well. As would Fujitsu.



  • @scottalanmiller ROFL... If I didn't know better, my first guess would be that is the same model used in the HP / LeftHand P4300 SAN series...


  • Service Provider

    @dafyre said:

    @scottalanmiller ROFL... If I didn't know better, my first guess would be that is the same model used in the HP / LeftHand P4300 SAN series...

    It is, we've often mentioned that the Lefthand was HP's response to the SAM-SD reference design. They actually took the parts and design that we had been promoting and built a fully supported proprietary product based on the open design that we had done.


  • Service Provider

    New SAM-SD discussion group created as the official place to discuss the SAM-SD concept. We will eventually direct here from the SAM-SD website.



  • @scottalanmiller said:

    The HP Proliant DL585 G2, the first machine that McAlvin and I designed to take on NetApp in a 10,000 node compute cluster for NFS performance in 2007. Used RHEL 5 and NFS 3. Crushed a half million dollar NetApp tuned by the NetApp team directly for the test. This is the SAM-SD 0, it wasn't called a SAM-SD until years later.

    hp proliant dl585 g2

    what about your setup do you think allowed this box to crush them?


  • Service Provider

    @Dashrender said:

    what about your setup do you think allowed this box to crush them?

    We know very well what it was - vastly higher threading performance provided by the combination of the Opterons and the RHEL OS. NetApp is built of FreeBSD and does not thread as well as Linux and is not tuned as well for storage performance (FreeBSD shines at network performance over Linux and the reverse for storage.) And the NetApp devices are disk heavy but did not have particularly powerful CPUs. The combination meant that the NFS layer would literally demand more from the CPUs than the platform could provide. The $20K Proliant with Linux was able to crush the $500K NetApp with the NetApp actually crashing and dying while the Proliant was able to complete all of the tests.

    It was all predicted ahead of time and the DL585 chosen because of its ability to vastly "outthread" the NetApp.


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