Internet Provider Change At Work
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@JaredBusch said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Basic DSL goes faster than that, though, many providers don't bother, but the technology lets it happen. If you are way, way out on the end of a line on old copper, you might be distance limited, but the DSL itself goes faster. I had faster DSL than that at home in 2003 back when cable wasn't so good in the area (in Geneseo, the town looking at fiber.)
No it does not. basic DSL spec was 1 mbps up. Real world lines were never that clean and the best you could do in the real world was 800 on a near perfect copper pair. Most people were lucky if the plant to their premise could support 512.
Yep Basic DSL spec is very low. You gotta remember these days services sold as DSL aren't necessarily true DSL, some are fiber all the way, some are just copper from the road to the house. etc. DSL was originally very limited in both distance and speed with all cooper. We can't even get verizon DSL here even though we can phone as they didn't think it was worth the time to improve the infrastructure to support it.
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@JaredBusch said:
@scottalanmiller said:
I wasn't saying, though, that it was rare for people to have ~1Mb/s DSL, but that it was rare for a vendor to not offer anything faster. That people opt for slower, cheaper service I'm not denying. I see that a bit. And it makes sense. But there is a lot of money to be made in upselling Internet now. I pretty consistently see ISPs offering a means to pay them more for premium services.
Yes you were. You were discussing lower cost technologies than T1. From a phone company the only alternative for many people was DSL until a few years ago.
Yes but DSL since 2000 at least was offered far higher than 1Mb/s. Running original ADSL from the 1990s is not, I thought, a common top end option. The worst ISP I know, Frontier, was offering SDSL, HDSL and other options by the first years of the 2000s. AT&T UVerse DSL is places I've seen it do the same. DSL has not limited people to speeds near 1Mb/s for a very long time. I was looking at 20Mb/s and faster DSL options (that I could not afford) in 2001.
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@thecreativeone91 said:
Yep Basic DSL spec is very low.
It's the original ANSI ADSL spec that is super low. The IDSL, SDSL, HDSL and other early specs were mostly much faster, except IDSL which was just ISDN equivalent over DSL.
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And remember the time period that we are talking, HDSL, for example, had products on the market in 1993 and was ratified in 1994 and was up to 2Mb/s up. That's a long time ago.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Yes but DSL since 2000 at least was offered far higher than 1Mb/s. Running original ADSL from the 1990s is not, I thought, a common top end option. The worst ISP I know, Frontier, was offering SDSL, HDSL and other options by the first years of the 2000s. AT&T UVerse DSL is places I've seen it do the same. DSL has not limited people to speeds near 1Mb/s for a very long time. I was looking at 20Mb/s and faster DSL options (that I could not afford) in 2001.
This is completely untrue. I happened to have worked from 2000 through 2007 for the division of AT&T (was not AT&T in the beginning) that installed DSL.
I can tell you for a fact that the best service available was NOT 1mbps up.
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@scottalanmiller said:
And remember the time period that we are talking, HDSL, for example, had products on the market in 1993 and was ratified in 1994 and was up to 2Mb/s up. That's a long time ago.
Those services were NOT on the market anywhere in 2000. Let alone in 1994.
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@JaredBusch said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Yes but DSL since 2000 at least was offered far higher than 1Mb/s. Running original ADSL from the 1990s is not, I thought, a common top end option. The worst ISP I know, Frontier, was offering SDSL, HDSL and other options by the first years of the 2000s. AT&T UVerse DSL is places I've seen it do the same. DSL has not limited people to speeds near 1Mb/s for a very long time. I was looking at 20Mb/s and faster DSL options (that I could not afford) in 2001.
This is completely untrue. I happened to have worked from 2000 through 2007 for the division of AT&T (was not AT&T in the beginning) that installed DSL.
I can tell you for a fact that the best service available was NOT 1mbps up.
It was better or worse?
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1994? Sure for the specs. (but look when IPv6 was made ratified). Many places couldn't even get High speed internet until 2005-2008.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@JaredBusch said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Yes but DSL since 2000 at least was offered far higher than 1Mb/s. Running original ADSL from the 1990s is not, I thought, a common top end option. The worst ISP I know, Frontier, was offering SDSL, HDSL and other options by the first years of the 2000s. AT&T UVerse DSL is places I've seen it do the same. DSL has not limited people to speeds near 1Mb/s for a very long time. I was looking at 20Mb/s and faster DSL options (that I could not afford) in 2001.
This is completely untrue. I happened to have worked from 2000 through 2007 for the division of AT&T (was not AT&T in the beginning) that installed DSL.
I can tell you for a fact that the best service available was NOT 1mbps up.
It was better or worse?
Don't be an intentional ass. My statement is very clear that the best service was not better.
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@JaredBusch said:
@scottalanmiller said:
And remember the time period that we are talking, HDSL, for example, had products on the market in 1993 and was ratified in 1994 and was up to 2Mb/s up. That's a long time ago.
Those services were NOT on the market anywhere in 2000. Let alone in 1994.
That's straight from wikipedia. When I was studying this stuff for certification in the late 1990s these were all technologies that we had to know a little about and were not new at the time, although many were being rolled out only commonly then.
The 1Mb/s ADSL server was 1998. The faster than 1Mb/s ADSL was 1999. That's spec ratification.
NTG was running much faster SDSL for hosting services by 2003. That I know absolutely for sure. It was the only time that we used DSL internally and it was relatively faster for the time.
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@JaredBusch said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@JaredBusch said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Yes but DSL since 2000 at least was offered far higher than 1Mb/s. Running original ADSL from the 1990s is not, I thought, a common top end option. The worst ISP I know, Frontier, was offering SDSL, HDSL and other options by the first years of the 2000s. AT&T UVerse DSL is places I've seen it do the same. DSL has not limited people to speeds near 1Mb/s for a very long time. I was looking at 20Mb/s and faster DSL options (that I could not afford) in 2001.
This is completely untrue. I happened to have worked from 2000 through 2007 for the division of AT&T (was not AT&T in the beginning) that installed DSL.
I can tell you for a fact that the best service available was NOT 1mbps up.
It was better or worse?
Don't be an intentional ass. My statement is very clear that the best service was not better.
No, I was completely unclear since small players were much faster than that. I can't believe that AT&T was so far behind the market. I was shopping for many times that speed from other players like MCI at the time.
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@thecreativeone91 said:
1994? Sure for the specs. (but look when IPv6 was made ratified). Many places couldn't even get High speed internet until 2005-2008.
Sure, but were they rolling out old specs or more current ones when they did roll it out?
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@JaredBusch said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@JaredBusch said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Yes but DSL since 2000 at least was offered far higher than 1Mb/s. Running original ADSL from the 1990s is not, I thought, a common top end option. The worst ISP I know, Frontier, was offering SDSL, HDSL and other options by the first years of the 2000s. AT&T UVerse DSL is places I've seen it do the same. DSL has not limited people to speeds near 1Mb/s for a very long time. I was looking at 20Mb/s and faster DSL options (that I could not afford) in 2001.
This is completely untrue. I happened to have worked from 2000 through 2007 for the division of AT&T (was not AT&T in the beginning) that installed DSL.
I can tell you for a fact that the best service available was NOT 1mbps up.
It was better or worse?
Don't be an intentional ass. My statement is very clear that the best service was not better.
Are you sure that you were not just working with a division that was only offering consumer ADSL and was not offering business SDSL? We are talking business service here. Sure, some businesses use ADSL, maybe most, but "business class" as the ISPs sold it was typically SDSL. And it was a long time ago that they were above 1Mb/s.
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So researching some history and according to: http://www.speedguide.net/articles/the-history-of-dsl-internet-access-1414
The earliest variation of DSL to be widely used was HDSL (High bit-rate DSL) which gave an equal amount of wideband digital transmission in both directions. HDSL technology was developed in the early 1990s, making it one of the oldest forms of DSL. It was used between the telephone company and a customer, and also within a corporate site. HDSL service provided equal bandwidth for both downloads and uploads, but required multiple phone lines to do this.
So that was higher than 1Mb/s available in the early 1990s, many years before the 1Mb/s limited ADSL was first released. The 1Mb/s limitation is not intrinsic to DSL nor is it "basic". ADSL was a later offering, it did not even exist when I was first dealing with DSL (1998ish) and ISDN replacement options. That's a specific limitation of just one DSL variriantion that was not the first one on the market or available.
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Did you just question my honesty? What a dick move.
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@JaredBusch said:
Did you just question my honesty? What a dick move.
I'm not even sure to what you are referring. What did I question?
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I was wondering if you had worked for a DSL installer that was limited in scope. Were you able to install all AT&T products or only certain ones?
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Good discussion guys! I am about to present the Cable option to management today...
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@JaredBusch said:
@scottalanmiller said:
And remember the time period that we are talking, HDSL, for example, had products on the market in 1993 and was ratified in 1994 and was up to 2Mb/s up. That's a long time ago.
Those services were NOT on the market anywhere in 2000. Let alone in 1994.
Your times are off as well.
G.HDSL was sold by Verizon ~2002, a little earlier if I recall. I bought one because I wanted faster upload speed versus the frame relay ADSL that was prevalent in VZ West aka GTE. They also ran very hot ATM based g.lite service at the time, but I couldn't flip to it because there wasn't a DSLAM available for me to hop into. I could get close to 768K up with ADSL, G.HDSL gave me a solid 2Mbps. Of course, I was one of the beta testers in DeKalb, IL for GTE's ADSL product at the time in 1997. Holy shit it was cool to have 256Kbps/64Kbps at the time. When I moved to Dallas, I was third on the list to get GTE's ADSL in the town it rolled out to first in 1998. Guy who put it in took a day to get things right, with me testing as well on the loop.
SBC didn't bother with lots of that stuff, only for hi-cap, where they been using SDSL and/or HDSL for a long time. CLECs on the other hand in MOKAT, PacBell, and especially Ameritech, went nuts on crazy bandwidth.
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@PSX_Defector said:
@JaredBusch said:
@scottalanmiller said:
And remember the time period that we are talking, HDSL, for example, had products on the market in 1993 and was ratified in 1994 and was up to 2Mb/s up. That's a long time ago.
Those services were NOT on the market anywhere in 2000. Let alone in 1994.
Your times are off as well.
G.HDSL was sold by Verizon ~2002, a little earlier if I recall. I bought one because I wanted faster upload speed versus the frame relay ADSL that was prevalent in VZ West aka GTE. They also ran very hot ATM based g.lite service at the time, but I couldn't flip to it because there wasn't a DSLAM available for me to hop into. I could get close to 768K up with ADSL, G.HDSL gave me a solid 2Mbps. Of course, I was one of the beta testers in DeKalb, IL for GTE's ADSL product at the time in 1997. Holy shit it was cool to have 256Kbps/64Kbps at the time. When I moved to Dallas, I was third on the list to get GTE's ADSL in the town it rolled out to first in 1998. Guy who put it in took a day to get things right, with me testing as well on the loop.
SBC didn't bother with lots of that stuff, only for hi-cap, where they been using SDSL and/or HDSL for a long time. CLECs on the other hand in MOKAT, PacBell, and especially Ameritech, went nuts on crazy bandwidth.
The alphabet soup there was just awesome - now back to your regularly scheduled OP.
