Non-IT News Thread
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@tim_g said in Non-IT News Thread:
You do know that it's no secret the Swedish Democratic party is heavily racist, right?
That's fine. But does that mean all party members are? Are all Americans racist just because our main political parties are? Or are we just stuck with very few choices and have to make the best of it?
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@tim_g said in Non-IT News Thread:
You do know that it's no secret the Swedish Democratic party is heavily racist, right?
What? Like the base the Republican party courted this last cycle?
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@tim_g said in Non-IT News Thread:
Swedish Democratic party
Isn't the Sweden Democrat party a nationalist party. Not quite as extreme as the American Republican party but on the same side of the spectrum? Nationalism and racism often, historically at least, go hand in hand.
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@coliver said in Non-IT News Thread:
@tim_g said in Non-IT News Thread:
Swedish Democratic party
Isn't the Sweden Democrat party a nationalist party. Not quite as extreme as the American Republican party but on the same side of the spectrum? Nationalism and racism often, historically at least, go hand in hand.
Yes, it is. It's got all of the terms for "Nazi" in its name.
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He's not the princess you think he was.
He was heavily active in Nazi extremest groups, part of the fascist movement (which he thought was horrible enough to have to apologize numerous times for), part of Hitler Youth, referred to his own past as "sin", urged Sweden to join the Axis Powers and fight in the war... he was part of the fascist movement with bad intentions, no matter how innocent you think it was.
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I don't feel that he and his actions are worth defending.
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@tim_g said in Non-IT News Thread:
He's not the princess you think he was.
He was heavily active in Nazi extremest groups, part of the fascist movement (which he thought was horrible enough to have to apologize numerous times for), part of Hitler Youth, referred to his own past as "sin", urged Sweden to join the Axis Powers and fight in the war... he was part of the fascist movement with bad intentions, no matter how innocent you think it was.
Who said innocent? We are asking "Why is being a fascist bad?"
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@tim_g said in Non-IT News Thread:
I don't feel that he and his actions are worth defending.
But what were his actions? He was an active member of a popular political party. It's not great, and no one defended them. But you seem to be reacting to some news we've not heard about him.
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@tim_g said in Non-IT News Thread:
He was heavily active in Nazi extremest groups, part of the fascist movement (which he thought was horrible enough to have to apologize numerous times for), part of Hitler Youth, referred to his own past as "sin", urged Sweden to join the Axis Powers and fight in the war... he was part of the fascist movement with bad intentions...
Why was joining the Axis powers bad? Remember that the Axis powers were defending themselves against decades of illegal aggression that violated the terms of the WW1 armistice. The idea of the Axis powers was actually a pretty good one.
Fascism was, and is still, a popular political belief and is not tied to Nazism. The Nazis were names of specific fascist parties. Today, fascism remains one of the most popular political beliefs with the US being one of the countries that embraces it more than most, while eschewing the name (but only the name.)
Extremest sounds bad, but what does it mean here?
I missed the part about the Hitler Youth but, let's be honest, being a member of a brainwashing organization for children kind of defends someone's actions rather than makes them culpable for them. There was a strong system of getting children involved before they understood what was happening - if they ever knew what was happening.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Why was joining the Axis powers bad?
It's not that part alone.
It's because of everything else, PLUS wanting to join the Axis powers to file along with the Nazis. It smells of ill-intent.
I don't believe he innocently wanted to join the Axis powers to fight in the war with good, non-Nazi intentions.
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@tim_g said in Non-IT News Thread:
I don't believe he innocently wanted to join the Axis powers to fight in the war with good, non-Nazi intentions.
Why don't you believe that? Have you read something that specifically gives you this belief?
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@dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@tim_g said in Non-IT News Thread:
I don't believe he innocently wanted to join the Axis powers to fight in the war with good, non-Nazi intentions.
Why don't you believe that? Have you read something that specifically gives you this belief?
Well, there seems to be a lot of evidence of ill-intentions... love of Nazis, Fascists, and Hitler. None of it being anecdotal.
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Gee thanks guys, I got pulled off sides, 5yd penalty.
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@tim_g said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Why was joining the Axis powers bad?
It's not that part alone.
It's because of everything else, PLUS wanting to join the Axis powers to file along with the Nazis. It smells of ill-intent.
I don't believe he innocently wanted to join the Axis powers to fight in the war with good, non-Nazi intentions.
I'm not saying that he did or didn't, only that what we know about his involvement seems to be....
- He was a kid
- He supported the popular movement of the time for nationalism.
- He was brainwashed by organizations for this as a youth.
- He was involved in supporting the party in normal political ways.
- He had no visible negative actions on his part and actively worked with Jews in Sweden.
- He supported the Axis powers broadly, which wasn't the clear decision then like it is today.
What we know about him in this regard is very little. That there is very little to know, suggests that his involvement was likely on the benign side. Millions of Germans supported the Nazi party and never knew the evils it was doing. Until you were top brass, your ability to know what was happening was very, very hidden.
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@tim_g said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@tim_g said in Non-IT News Thread:
I don't believe he innocently wanted to join the Axis powers to fight in the war with good, non-Nazi intentions.
Why don't you believe that? Have you read something that specifically gives you this belief?
Well, there seems to be a lot of evidence of ill-intentions... love of Nazis, Fascists, and Hitler. None of it being anecdotal.
You are taking things you dislike - fascism, nationalism, and a leader who later we found out was totally evil - and applying them as "ill-intent" to him. But none of that is correct.
There is nothing directly wrong with fascism, nationalism, or who Hitler was reported to be. Remember, at the beginning of the war, Hitler was a hero to Americans. He was Times' Man of the Year. Loving Hitler was something an insane number of people, even on the Allied side, felt. Remember when this was happening. He had no way to know what Hitler was doing, no one did. The German people didn't know, the American government didn't know, random teenagers in Sweden certainly had no idea.
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All this debate over the possible political leanings of a dead Swedish guy??? I'm wondering why on earth I should give even a tiny fraction of a fuck.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@tim_g said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@tim_g said in Non-IT News Thread:
I don't believe he innocently wanted to join the Axis powers to fight in the war with good, non-Nazi intentions.
Why don't you believe that? Have you read something that specifically gives you this belief?
Well, there seems to be a lot of evidence of ill-intentions... love of Nazis, Fascists, and Hitler. None of it being anecdotal.
You are taking things you dislike - fascism, nationalism, and a leader who later we found out was totally evil - and applying them as "ill-intent" to him. But none of that is correct.
There is nothing directly wrong with fascism, nationalism, or who Hitler was reported to be. Remember, at the beginning of the war, Hitler was a hero to Americans. He was Times' Man of the Year. Loving Hitler was something an insane number of people, even on the Allied side, felt. Remember when this was happening. He had no way to know what Hitler was doing, no one did. The German people didn't know, the American government didn't know, random teenagers in Sweden certainly had no idea.
He very well knew what Hitler was up to in the late 40's, as did the world.
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@rojoloco said in Non-IT News Thread:
All this debate over the possible political leanings of a dead Swedish guy??? I'm wondering why on earth I should give even a tiny fraction of a fuck.
Because it's a continuing story of crucifixion against someone for reasons that are misunderstood. Like disliking someone because they were part of a Nazi party, not THE Nazi party (i.e. the German one).
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You have to give some perspective. Fascism and nationalism are both popular today, broadly. Not just in the US, but all over the world. These are the major movements people are talking about today. The new term for them is "populism." We know it is bad, but people support it broadly. They see it as protecting jobs, as protecting the identities of their countries. Many see it as providing equality so that they can be treated like many poorer countries are. While generally bad, there are some valid ideas behind it.
Given that something like 50% of Americans and 50% of Europeans openly support populism today; and several countries have elected populist leaders actively - you are putting Ikea's founder into a club that includes... basically half of everyone that you know. He just happened to be a teenager at a time when things were very heated and being on either side of the fence risked you being labeled as evil by whoever won the war (the ideological war, rather than the physical one.)
I agree, he chose wrong. But his perspective at the time, was very different from ours. We don't know how much he knew of what he was choosing. He very possibly was simply worried about Russian aggression (Sweden is ramping up for war today for this same reason), and knew that no matter how neutral Sweden was, that it was seen as an Axis power by the Allies and was ripe for invasion. He may have just been very pro-Sweden nationalism. Not a great thing, but no reason to be seriously upset with him.
The evils of Nazism were a secret to the world until later. Supporting the Nazis, especially from outside of the country, in no way implies supporting what the Nazis were doing in secret.
