Non-IT News Thread
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
As for Patents, those are a form of government control and a good one. It its not without its issue though.
I'm not a believer in patents. There's some sound idea behind it.... if you invent something you should have some advantage. But you already have an advantage, making it a monopoly hurts consumers. Patents work against capitalism and free markets and all traditional systems. The idea that "writing something down first" makes it yours is a problem. Once in a while, we can justify it by example, but rarely. There is hardly a patented item ever made that I think worked out. The idea of patents has nothing to do with invention, but exists to make it essentially impossible for individuals and small companies to compete and to shift money to big companies and lawyers.
If the story behind the intermittent windshield wiper is true, then your comments aren't completely right, but generally, yeah I agree, they are a way to keep the little man down, especially when you make patents on things you aren't actually making...
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@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
As for Patents, those are a form of government control and a good one. It its not without its issue though.
I'm not a believer in patents. There's some sound idea behind it.... if you invent something you should have some advantage. But you already have an advantage, making it a monopoly hurts consumers. Patents work against capitalism and free markets and all traditional systems. The idea that "writing something down first" makes it yours is a problem. Once in a while, we can justify it by example, but rarely. There is hardly a patented item ever made that I think worked out. The idea of patents has nothing to do with invention, but exists to make it essentially impossible for individuals and small companies to compete and to shift money to big companies and lawyers.
especially when you make patents on things you aren't actually making...
I see we were thinking along the same lines while cross posting.
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@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
The system only needs a few changes but my main changes would be, shorter term limits and very short term limits for patents without some type of prototype.
Exactly, shorter for sure, like 2 years max... Drugs really need this!!!
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@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
Putting a few billion dollars and many years into development of a product only to have it abused by another in one month is not a good thing.
There is already protection for that, though. No need for patents.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
Putting a few billion dollars and many years into development of a product only to have it abused by another in one month is not a good thing.
There is already protection for that, though. No need for patents.
What is that protection?
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
Putting a few billion dollars and many years into development of a product only to have it abused by another in one month is not a good thing.
There is already protection for that, though. No need for patents.
I am missing something here. What protection is there. Based on what I know, drugs get a patent just like everything else.
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@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
The system only needs a few changes but my main changes would be, shorter term limits and very short term limits for patents without some type of prototype.
It helps, but in the modern world, they don't work as any term is too long. I've never seen a scenario where I was comfortable with the patent process. Literally, none.
Now, if we tweaked absolutely everything.... I'd still not be okay with it but making it free would help. But then, the public is still paying for it.
All patents and patent processes are just used to funnel money from the public to the government.
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@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
Putting a few billion dollars and many years into development of a product only to have it abused by another in one month is not a good thing.
There is already protection for that, though. No need for patents.
What is that protection?
You can tell we are both in healthcare.
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@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
As for Patents, those are a form of government control and a good one. It its not without its issue though.
I'm not a believer in patents. There's some sound idea behind it.... if you invent something you should have some advantage. But you already have an advantage, making it a monopoly hurts consumers. Patents work against capitalism and free markets and all traditional systems. The idea that "writing something down first" makes it yours is a problem. Once in a while, we can justify it by example, but rarely. There is hardly a patented item ever made that I think worked out. The idea of patents has nothing to do with invention, but exists to make it essentially impossible for individuals and small companies to compete and to shift money to big companies and lawyers.
If the story behind the intermittent windshield wiper is true, then your comments aren't completely right, but generally, yeah I agree, they are a way to keep the little man down, especially when you make patents on things you aren't actually making...
I have no idea what you mean.
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@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
Putting a few billion dollars and many years into development of a product only to have it abused by another in one month is not a good thing.
There is already protection for that, though. No need for patents.
What is that protection?
Trade secrets.
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@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
Putting a few billion dollars and many years into development of a product only to have it abused by another in one month is not a good thing.
There is already protection for that, though. No need for patents.
I am missing something here. What protection is there. Based on what I know, drugs get a patent just like everything else.
They do, andthat's evil, like any other patent (but worse, because it's holding people's lives for extortion.) But conceptually it's all evil.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
As for Patents, those are a form of government control and a good one. It its not without its issue though.
I'm not a believer in patents. There's some sound idea behind it.... if you invent something you should have some advantage. But you already have an advantage, making it a monopoly hurts consumers. Patents work against capitalism and free markets and all traditional systems. The idea that "writing something down first" makes it yours is a problem. Once in a while, we can justify it by example, but rarely. There is hardly a patented item ever made that I think worked out. The idea of patents has nothing to do with invention, but exists to make it essentially impossible for individuals and small companies to compete and to shift money to big companies and lawyers.
If the story behind the intermittent windshield wiper is true, then your comments aren't completely right, but generally, yeah I agree, they are a way to keep the little man down, especially when you make patents on things you aren't actually making...
I have no idea what you mean.
The story as I recall it - random guy invented the intermittent windshield wiper tech, it was non trivial to people who work in the field - he got a patent on it... then looked for manufacturers to sell it to - for whatever reason, he didn't want to sell the patent, or ____ it, he wanted to manufacture the windshield wipers himself and sell them to auto makers...
long story short - he was working with an auto maker, they stole his information and manufactured themselves, cutting him out - he sued them, and years later won - the auto maker had to stop making them, and he was able to open a shop making and selling them to automakers... -
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
Putting a few billion dollars and many years into development of a product only to have it abused by another in one month is not a good thing.
There is already protection for that, though. No need for patents.
What is that protection?
Trade secrets.
Reverse engineering??
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If a big pharma (which I don't believe should exist in the first place) makes a new drug through tons of research (meaning, big money invested) and wants to make loads of money off of that (meaning keeping it out of the hands of people who need it in order to make money) then they already have the research (which is illegal to steal) and the knowledge of how to make it (which is illegal to steal) and a long lead on the process. They get a lot of time in which they are the only ones in the market under existing non-patent protections. In order to patent a drug, they have to trade in their trade secrets in order to file the patent.
Existing protections, which are good, get eliminated and new ones, that are evil, get added. Using the government to create opportunity where none existed. It's communism at the extreme - the capitalistic free market isn't seen as desirable because the playing field is too level, so the government steps in, selects a benefactor, and holds the public for ransom till they get their money. Planned economy as opposed to free market. I believe heavily in capitalism and you can't have patents with capitalism, they are directly opposed to each other.
Not to knock communism, it has its points, but generally, it sounds good on paper but demotivates investors and cripples the economy and in practice just moves money from the poorest to the richest.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
Putting a few billion dollars and many years into development of a product only to have it abused by another in one month is not a good thing.
There is already protection for that, though. No need for patents.
What is that protection?
Trade secrets.
Trade secrets is just a form of short term internal patent with the ability to create high short term pricing. The company would just calculate how long it would take for another to reverse engineer their product and add that to the intial cost. Thus, drug A will be three times the amount vs being able to have a 10 year patent. (just what I think would happen)
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@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
Putting a few billion dollars and many years into development of a product only to have it abused by another in one month is not a good thing.
There is already protection for that, though. No need for patents.
What is that protection?
Trade secrets.
Reverse engineering??
Right. Reverse engineering is good. Great. Incredible. And ANYTHING that discourages it is bad, for everyone.
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@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
As for Patents, those are a form of government control and a good one. It its not without its issue though.
I'm not a believer in patents. There's some sound idea behind it.... if you invent something you should have some advantage. But you already have an advantage, making it a monopoly hurts consumers. Patents work against capitalism and free markets and all traditional systems. The idea that "writing something down first" makes it yours is a problem. Once in a while, we can justify it by example, but rarely. There is hardly a patented item ever made that I think worked out. The idea of patents has nothing to do with invention, but exists to make it essentially impossible for individuals and small companies to compete and to shift money to big companies and lawyers.
If the story behind the intermittent windshield wiper is true, then your comments aren't completely right, but generally, yeah I agree, they are a way to keep the little man down, especially when you make patents on things you aren't actually making...
I have no idea what you mean.
The story as I recall it - random guy invented the intermittent windshield wiper tech, it was non trivial to people who work in the field - he got a patent on it... then looked for manufacturers to sell it to - for whatever reason, he didn't want to sell the patent, or ____ it, he wanted to manufacture the windshield wipers himself and sell them to auto makers...
long story short - he was working with an auto maker, they stole his information and manufactured themselves, cutting him out - he sued them, and years later won - the auto maker had to stop making them, and he was able to open a shop making and selling them to automakers...Right, the issue there being theft. This tells us nothing about the value of patents. They can't just steal a trade secret, thanks to NDAs.
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@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
Putting a few billion dollars and many years into development of a product only to have it abused by another in one month is not a good thing.
There is already protection for that, though. No need for patents.
What is that protection?
Trade secrets.
Trade secrets is just a form of short term internal patent with the ability to create high short term pricing. The company would just calculate how long it would take for another to reverse engineer their product and add that to the intial cost. Thus, drug A will be three times the amount vs being able to have a 10 year patent. (just what I think would happen)
No, it's quite different. They are quite the opposite. One is "figure things out and make money on your knowledge" the other is "file legal paperwork and make money based on the legal system and government"
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
Putting a few billion dollars and many years into development of a product only to have it abused by another in one month is not a good thing.
There is already protection for that, though. No need for patents.
What is that protection?
Trade secrets.
Reverse engineering??
Right. Reverse engineering is good. Great. Incredible. And ANYTHING that discourages it is bad, for everyone.
That's why trade secrets are pointless - you invent something, someone else buys it, reverse engineers, then they make it and sell it for less, and you're out of business... so - there are no protections if you don't have a patent.
Sadly, driving to the bottom dollar is often when drives many of these businesses to zero.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
Putting a few billion dollars and many years into development of a product only to have it abused by another in one month is not a good thing.
There is already protection for that, though. No need for patents.
What is that protection?
Trade secrets.
Trade secrets is just a form of short term internal patent with the ability to create high short term pricing. The company would just calculate how long it would take for another to reverse engineer their product and add that to the intial cost. Thus, drug A will be three times the amount vs being able to have a 10 year patent. (just what I think would happen)
No, it's quite different. They are quite the opposite. One is "figure things out and make money on your knowledge" the other is "file legal paperwork and make money based on the legal system and government"
In the end, Product A's price will include the reverse engineering fee until Product B is created and sold. Doesn't matter if it is held as a trade secret within the company or the entire schematic laid out on paper for all to see.
If a protected time period doesn't exist, initial pricing will be three to five times more than it is already. Product A will be duplicated and Company A has to get on the ball for the next drug using the extra Billions it received from Product A's initial HUGE price.
