SAMIT: Should You Provide Equipment for Work from Home Staff?
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@Carnival-Boy said in SAMIT: Should You Provide Equipment for Work from Home Staff?:
Weren't you literally arguing that anyone who doesn't study IT that is unrelated to the IT in their day job, in their own time, on their own laptop, is not a "GOOD" employee and you wouldn't want to hire them?
I think you are mixing the concepts of people we'd hire vs. those we continue to employ. 100% I want people who learn on their own when we hire them, which is why they need a computer at home already. Like I keep saying, I generally recommend providing tools to employees, but much less likely to potential employees.
An employee whose laptop dies and needs a replacement, we provide those. But a candidate who doesn't have a computer at all? That isn't very likely to be a viable candidate.
But as people have pointed out, it's kind of evil, in a way, to provide their computer, Internet, housing because, like in your situation, if your employer decided to let you go, you'd be without a computer and if you want to get to serious job hunting or skill expansion to prepare for your next position you'd be in the position of not being ready to hit the ground running, have to buy a computer in a rush at the worst possible time, and having to do so at a time when most people would be moving into an austerity budget. While it is a very light point when only talking about a laptop, it's a means of making employees dependent on the employer and feel just a little bit trapped. It makes the overhead (and fear) of seeking alternative employment higher.
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@Carnival-Boy said in SAMIT: Should You Provide Equipment for Work from Home Staff?:
But that study is all related to our day jobs - Microsoft business applications. No-one is learning Linux (for example) for fun as far as I know. My simple argument is that I am fine with that and don't consider any of my team BAD employees as a result. It appears you do.
I think "bad" is a strong word there. I would say "not ideal candidates." If I had no other options, would it be an absolute line in the sand? No. If I had people who had more interest, put me at less risk, represented more value to the organization of course I'd want them, strongly.
I hate that the answer has to be "you'd not be a candidate that I'd move on to a second round interview", but when you frame it this way, honestly, no, you'd not likely get the first interview. The things we value most, excitement, passion, self learning... those things we can't teach or change later are what feel like they are missing.
I want a team that says "I can't wait to get home to my kids", not a team that says "I can't wait to get out of here." Both want to leave the office, both have somewhere better to be. But in one case it's because family is a higher priority. In the other, it's because work is a drag, a necessary evil. There's a big difference.
IT is a field where two things I think are really important:
- Passion drives value above all things.
- There's no actual shortage of passionate IT people.
Sure, I want people who are MORE passionate about their kids than work. But I don't want people working just for a paycheck, I want people who are happy to be here, love their career (and job), support each other, grow, encourage one another and foster an environment of fun, excitement, value, creativity... those are essentially impossible when "learning and growth" are seen as job chores and when learning is only done for the express purpose of completing the immediate job function.
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@Carnival-Boy said in SAMIT: Should You Provide Equipment for Work from Home Staff?:
Most of my team have interesting hobbies - archery, hunting, pottery, house renovating, scout leadership, and most of them study and learn in their own time. But that study is all related to our day jobs - Microsoft business applications. No-one is learning Linux (for example) for fun as far as I know. My simple argument is that I am fine with that and don't consider any of my team BAD employees as a result. It appears you do.
So all of this can be framed in one way and taken as "Scott says you'd not be a good candidate for him." But there's a flipside. And that flipside is that my company isn't a company you'd want to work at either. I'm sure that goes both ways. It goes almost without saying that the things we value you'd hate as an employee.
Some people hate having to work from home. Some hate the flexibility. Hiring and being hired is a two ways street. I know you aren't saying it, but I can't see you ever having a conversation where you say "boy, I'd love to work for those guys." I get that.
We aren't a "here is the thing that you do" kind of company. We cross train, we constantly do new things, we take on different technology all of the time, everyone spends their days advising non-IT on approaches, options, looking for improvements to process, and so forth.
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@scottalanmiller said in SAMIT: Should You Provide Equipment for Work from Home Staff?:
In your example I'm sure MS' ERP products are working fine. They might even be the best choice. But will they always be the best choice?
Well, I work for a Microsoft partner, so if my clients decide Microsoft is no longer the best choice they're not going to remain as my client.
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@scottalanmiller said in SAMIT: Should You Provide Equipment for Work from Home Staff?:
think you are mixing the concepts of people we'd hire vs. those we continue to employ. 100% I want people who learn on their own when we hire them, which is why they need a computer at home already. Like I keep saying, I generally recommend providing tools to employees, but much less likely to potential employees.
An employee whose laptop dies and needs a replacement, we provide those.I think it's odd to distinguish between the two. By your criteria you wouldn't now employ your own team if they applied for their own position?
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@scottalanmiller said in SAMIT: Should You Provide Equipment for Work from Home Staff?:
So that's a great example of things I worry about with my team. If the team only really knows one thing here are a few business risks...
Your business risks are all valid, but this is why when I was running an internal IT department I would encourage my team to learn and explore other potential technologies. If we were running SQL Server, look into other databases. If the servers are all Windows, put a Linux sandbox in. This was all part of learning and developing the team, and keeping their passion for IT. Never stand still.
But the key point here is that this was all part of their job. Learning other technologies was part of their job, for precisely the reason you've mentioned - risk management. And all that learning was done on their work laptops.
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@scottalanmiller said in SAMIT: Should You Provide Equipment for Work from Home Staff?:
if your employer decided to let you go, you'd be without a computer and if you want to get to serious job hunting or skill expansion to prepare for your next position you'd be in the position of not being ready to hit the ground running, have to buy a computer in a rush at the worst possible time, and having to do so at a time when most people would be moving into an austerity budget.
So I should buy a laptop now, even though I don't need one, just in case my employer decided to let me go?
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@Carnival-Boy said in SAMIT: Should You Provide Equipment for Work from Home Staff?:
So I should buy a laptop now, even though I don't need one, just in case my employer decided to let me go?
No, but that's a weird leap of logic. But it is a risk you should anticipate and calculate.
You'll notice that I said it was people (in this thread, no less) who pointed out that employers providing resources (and employees allowing that) empowers the employer to make it more difficult to leave? That there is a negative that employees often overlook and don't account for when they request or demand that behaviour (or see it as favourable.) There is an emotional reaction to being "given" the use of a laptop or whatever that feels good and makes us often overlook the obvious negatives (they are allowed to control it more, it is part of your total cost of employment, it encourages you to put yourself at more risk in case of being unemployed, etc.)
A smart decision would be, if you truly believed owning your own computer had zero benefit to you, to set aside funds to allow for buying a computer that you never, ever consider part of any other budget so that you can effortlessly buy an appropriate (not emergency) computer without a second thought during a time of financial hardship. And mentally prepare yourself to not act irrationally to the need to do so should that happen.
But employers know that no one does that. They will simply take the "gift" and allow themselves to be more vulnerable and locked in which, in turn, makes them feel less powerful during salary negotiations or whatever.
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@Carnival-Boy said in SAMIT: Should You Provide Equipment for Work from Home Staff?:
@scottalanmiller said in SAMIT: Should You Provide Equipment for Work from Home Staff?:
So that's a great example of things I worry about with my team. If the team only really knows one thing here are a few business risks...
Your business risks are all valid, but this is why when I was running an internal IT department I would encourage my team to learn and explore other potential technologies. If we were running SQL Server, look into other databases. If the servers are all Windows, put a Linux sandbox in. This was all part of learning and developing the team, and keeping their passion for IT. Never stand still.
But the key point here is that this was all part of their job. Learning other technologies was part of their job, for precisely the reason you've mentioned - risk management. And all that learning was done on their work laptops.
That's awesome, and I appreciate the value. My view, and you can take this either way, is that you can't determine what that scope is going to be necessarily which is why you want people learning all kinds of things over a broad spectrum because what does and doesn't apply is often a surprise.
Like, ten years ago, no one would think that MS SQL Server would be best run on Linux. And yet, here we are today with lower cost and better stability on Linux and the best SQL Server deployments no longer require Windows skills (on the strict DB component.) Not many DBA teams or their support teams anticipated that.
By take it either way... I mean you can then say "learning anything is within work hours scope" or you can say "they should learn on their own time because you can't define the scope." In our case, we let people study anything during work hours (we also let them play with their kids.)
Remember absolutely nothing is being said about what they learn "on their own machine vs work machine" it was about "what they have to learn during work hours vs what they choose to learn at other times that isn't believed to be work related."
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@Carnival-Boy said in SAMIT: Should You Provide Equipment for Work from Home Staff?:
@scottalanmiller said in SAMIT: Should You Provide Equipment for Work from Home Staff?:
think you are mixing the concepts of people we'd hire vs. those we continue to employ. 100% I want people who learn on their own when we hire them, which is why they need a computer at home already. Like I keep saying, I generally recommend providing tools to employees, but much less likely to potential employees.
An employee whose laptop dies and needs a replacement, we provide those.I think it's odd to distinguish between the two. By your criteria you wouldn't now employ your own team if they applied for their own position?
I can see why it might seem odd. But it's not. Hiring and continuing to employ are two very different things. In some aspects they are the same thing, but in other aspects, they are extremely different.
Keep in mind we supply computers, but almost none of our staff accept them. Those that do, I know of only one (truly, only one) who doesn't have her own computer as well, and that is solely because of financial hardship caused by a medical situation and she isn't even in IT at all but a completely different department. Even people in marketing and sales all have their own computers, even if they come to the office to use an office one. Even if they are given computers for home, they keep their own as well. Not saying that they have to, but even non-IT workers in lower income countries do that for these very reasons - protecting themselves, giving themselves flexibility and options, preparing for the unknown, etc.
Plus most want more than one computer at home as most have more than one person at home so the work computer adds more capability.
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@scottalanmiller said in SAMIT: Should You Provide Equipment for Work from Home Staff?:
It goes almost without saying that the things we value you'd hate as an employee.
Try me
We aren't a "here is the thing that you do" kind of company. We cross train, we constantly do new things, we take on different technology all of the time, everyone spends their days advising non-IT on approaches, options, looking for improvements to process, and so forth
We do all of those things to. I still don't know why you'd think we don't.
As usual, you've just jumped to conclusions about someone based on a spurious metric (they don't own a PC).
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@Carnival-Boy said in SAMIT: Should You Provide Equipment for Work from Home Staff?:
@scottalanmiller said in SAMIT: Should You Provide Equipment for Work from Home Staff?:
It goes almost without saying that the things we value you'd hate as an employee.
Try me
We aren't a "here is the thing that you do" kind of company. We cross train, we constantly do new things, we take on different technology all of the time, everyone spends their days advising non-IT on approaches, options, looking for improvements to process, and so forth
We do all of those things to. I still don't know why you'd think we don't.
As usual, you've just jumped to conclusions about someone based on a spurious metric (they don't own a PC).
Had to catch up on this long thread, but from what I've read I don't think you're really IT. You mentioned you'd fire a client for not using Microsoft products. That seems more like a sales engineer position to me. You don't really need any training because you can always fall back on Microsoft for support. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it's obviously more relaxed than true IT positions where you HAVE to make things work with what you have, and you actually do analysis of different products. If the answer is Microsoft eveytime, that explains why you don't have to commit to the level of those doing IT.
Also, if I remember correctly you're in Europe. European and American IT have much different mindset. In US, it's sink or swim with incentives to 1-4x your salary. It's built into our heads that we must be better or we will be left behind. From what I've seen in Europe jobs pay more equally so that translates into less incentive. On the flip side, I believe European model is probably easier and less stressful for individuals, but also less likely to unlock full potential.
Please don't take this post as being negative or even taking a side. I'm just pointing out that I believe you and @scottalanmiller are talking apples and oranges. Basically his comments don't apply to you and your comments don't really apply to American job market. Not that one is right or wrong.
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That all being said, Scott's view on company not providing a laptop is extremely unusual in US. I've never come across a position like that.
Although, @scottalanmiller and I would never work the same type of jobs. I prefer to be an employee of a company vs being consultant or contractor. I have my reasons for it, and @scottalanmiller and others on here have their reasons why they like consulting.
I would never consider or accept a job where I had to provide my own computer. I also, think it's ludicrous to be an IT employee and not have your own personal computer. It just shows that computers aren't really part of your passion. If I worked first mate on a fishing boat, I don't need a fishing rod for my job. But if I didn't have one at home, that would be an extremely weird situation. It's not something I'd ever ask in an interview because I could just tell by talking to someone of they are passionate about IT (or fishing). I would never have to even ask them if they had a computer (or fishing rod). As @scottalanmiller mentioned, they would be extremely lucky to make it to first interview, and would never make it to second.
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@IRJ said in SAMIT: Should You Provide Equipment for Work from Home Staff?:
You mentioned you'd fire a client for not using Microsoft products. That seems more like a sales engineer position to me. You don't really need any training because you can always fall back on Microsoft for support.
Ha, if only. I implement Microsoft ERP systems. If a client decides to migrate to, say, SAP or Oracle, then they will fire me, as I'm a Microsoft specialist. I don't fire them.
Microsoft don't provide support for ERP, we're on our own. They only do bug fixes. Basically, I am Microsoft support.
I work quite a bit with US clients and I think you'll find there isn't that much difference between the US and Europe these days in terms of mindset.
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@IRJ said in SAMIT: Should You Provide Equipment for Work from Home Staff?:
That all being said, Scott's view on company not providing a laptop is extremely unusual in US. I've never come across a position like that.
Which view is that, though? My main point is that people should have laptops of their own when being hired. That's my more stringent point. Whether or not you provide laptops at hire time additionally or later or not is a broader discussion.
I've known lots of jobs that don't provide computers and if you want to work from home, you just do it with what you provide. If you don't want to provide, you can come to the office.
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@Carnival-Boy said in SAMIT: Should You Provide Equipment for Work from Home Staff?:
I implement Microsoft ERP systems. If a client decides to migrate to, say, SAP or Oracle, then they will fire me, as I'm a Microsoft specialist. I don't fire them.
While nothing here says you work for a VAR, that's a very strange approach and mentality for an IT shop. If you aren't a reseller that's an insanely tiny slice of IT with nearly no scope. I've never seen any IT shop do this before, only VARs (where youd' be sales, not IT, obviously.)
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@Carnival-Boy said in SAMIT: Should You Provide Equipment for Work from Home Staff?:
We do all of those things to. I still don't know why you'd think we don't.
What do you do outside of MS and ERP? Why make your team broad, if the company doesn't consider doing anything outside of the immediate scope per your other description? It's interesting to be so focused yet have a broad idea of learning. For us, broad learning makes sense because of business/IT is in our scope so anything that makes us better, is good. But if you are "we are fired if the customer changes tech" that puts you in an awkward position of having to expose to customers that they should leave you in order to provide IT guidance in cases where the product you support isn't a best fit. That's why traditionally that situation is only used by VARs.
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@scottalanmiller said in SAMIT: Should You Provide Equipment for Work from Home Staff?:
My main point is that people should have laptops of their own when being hired.
Yeah, it's a minor point and my replies are minor, but we've dragged it on for a week without getting anywhere
Like I said, I've never owned a laptop in my working life. But I've also been lucky in that I've never been unemployed, so always had a laptop. Like many IT people, my laptop is almost like a fifth limb, an extension of my body, something I carry around like a child's comfort blanket, something that brings me out in cold sweats if it ever stops working. It's the most important inanimate object in my life, the first thing I pack when going on holiday (I'm sounding quite sad now).
But, but, but. I simply don't see the need for two laptops in my life. If I didn't have a work laptop, like say, I was unemployed, then of course, I would have my own. But that's never happened. I just don't see the benefit of having two devices in my house and I don't understand what you think I could do differently if I had two devices. What is it I can't do on just one device?
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@scottalanmiller said in SAMIT: Should You Provide Equipment for Work from Home Staff?:
What do you do outside of MS and ERP? Why make your team broad, if the company doesn't consider doing anything outside of the immediate scope per your other description? It's interesting to be so focused yet have a broad idea of learning.
I work for an ISV, not a VAR, but I don't get hung up on descriptions - we're a software house basically. Microsoft's business applications are extremely broad - ERP, CRM, Power BI, Power Apps - it's as broad as you want to make it, no-one could become an expert in everything, you have to specialise to a degree.
But look, we're getting in ad hominem replies now. I don't see the relevance. I get that this is primarily a forum for US MSPs and I'm a European ERP specialist, but I'm just offering my perspective. But when it gets to the level of replies (IRJ, not you) that say I'm not really IT, or that I don't need any training because I can fall back on Microsoft, or I don't have the commitment of "real" IT people then it's getting pointless.
And it's depressing to hear an American think that Europeans don't have the right "mindset", have it easier, and don't unlock their full potential. I don't really have any interest in engaging with that level of ignorance of other countries.
So I'll call it quits.
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@Carnival-Boy said in [SAMIT: Should You Provide Equipment for Work from Home
But look, we're getting in ad hominem replies now. I don't see the relevance. I get that this is primarily a forum for US MSPs and I'm a European ERP specialist, but I'm just offering my perspective. But when it gets to the level of replies (IRJ, not you) that say I'm not really IT, or that I don't need any training because I can fall back on Microsoft, or I don't have the commitment of "real" IT people then it's getting pointless.
It's ok for us to hear your perspective, but not mine?
Salary (incentives) and taxes are much different different in US and Europe. I mean that's just fact. There's pros and cons to both. In the US, alot of times its a struggle to get past that first level for many people. People get abused and bullied into lower salaries and insane workloads. It happens every day in the US and the percentage of workers that get stuck in that is higher than you think. You need both technical and soft skills to get out of it. Even then it really is a grind, and external factors surely can make it feel impossible to beat.
You've made it clear the type of work you do, my definition of it may differ from others.
