PRI over IP



  • What's involved in delivering PRI over IP? Can it be done with SIP trunks from a VoIP provider with the proper device at the client location?

    Is this something that is easy to do and reliable?

    Asking for a friend.



  • @JasGot said in PRI over IP:

    What's involved in delivering PRI over IP?

    Nothing, really. PRIoIP is not a real thing, it's just taking a SIP trunk and putting an "adapter" on the end to make it appear as a PRI. That's literally it.



  • @JasGot said in PRI over IP:

    Can it be done with SIP trunks from a VoIP provider with the proper device at the client location?

    Yes.



  • @JasGot said in PRI over IP:

    Is this something that is easy to do and reliable?

    Easy, yes. Reliable, no. It's bathshit crazy tech that has no real world purpose. No PRI level gear is cost effective or has any place being in production for decades. Replace that with something good and cheap, and use a reasonable service.

    A PRI was a necessary evil in the 1960s. It was never something you "wanted", always just "the best we could deliver." Taking all the problems of a PRI, and layering them on top of SIP is an improvement over a true PRI, but still crippling to SIP.

    And it's not PRI, so if that's some kind of requirement, this doesn't cut it. It's completely fake. Equivalent to claiming you speak German, and actually only speaking English, and just demanding that the person that you speak to use Google Translate to hear what you said in German after the fact. Yes, they hear German (or see what looks like a PRI), but you're still just speaking English.

    Fake PRI just means that your unlimited, super flexible SIP trunk is now limited to 23 concurrent calls and needs special hardware to work and has lots more places to break that shouldn't exist.



  • Does your system only accept PRIs?



  • @Dashrender said in PRI over IP:

    Does your system only accept PRIs?

    That's the assumption, there's literally no other reason to ever consider it. But if you have a system that only takes PRI, it means that the system is old, fragile, cannot be virtualized, cannot be moved, etc. Many of the protections that are just basic assumptions of any business class system since the early 2000s are lost.... making it something that can't be considered business ready. It's reckless enough that it creates the problem where even if a company claims that they accept the risks, you know that they don't understand them or they would never have accepted them. You tend to end up in a situation where when things fail, they blame you for letting them set themselves up for failure.



  • @Dashrender said in PRI over IP:

    Does your system only accept PRIs?

    And POTS.

    Old system, not ready to replace. Existing Old School PRI is being discontinued on Dec 31, 2020

    Current provider offered PRI over IP.

    Since these are non emergency lines for a public safety department, they are weighing the pros and cons of bringing SIP termination in-house (VoIP service to own equipment) instead of a local telco provider.

    Don't know how easily the old PBX can injest SIP. Current pbx support is very pricey.



  • @JasGot said in PRI over IP:

    Old system, not ready to replace.

    But WHY aren't they ready to replace? PRI has been costing them a premium for years, and it going to continue to cost them a premium. Spending extra now to enable legacy cruft is a bad use of money. It's "investing in technical debt".



  • @JasGot said in PRI over IP:

    Current provider offered PRI over IP.

    Everyone offers it, it's a huge scam. It makes great money and locks in the customer. So they earn dollars on the penny and they know the customer isn't being discerning so they can take their money every which way. It takes no effort to offer as it's just a piece of equipment that you sell the customer and then you tell billing to jack up their price by a hundred fold.



  • @JasGot said in PRI over IP:

    Since these are non emergency lines for a public safety department, they are weighing the pros and cons of bringing SIP termination in-house (VoIP service to own equipment) instead of a local telco provider.

    What is there to weigh? Using local telco violates fundamental business practices (nothing technical, just business.) It's costly and risky.



  • @JasGot said in PRI over IP:

    Don't know how easily the old PBX can injest SIP. Current pbx support is very pricey.

    PBX support is pretty cheap. Not free, it's not a nothing expense. But phones are not a high ticket item unless customers just want them to be. Old PBXs, and old pre-Internet phone thinking is very, very costly.



  • @scottalanmiller said in PRI over IP:

    @JasGot said in PRI over IP:

    Don't know how easily the old PBX can injest SIP. Current pbx support is very pricey.

    PBX support is pretty cheap. Not free, it's not a nothing expense. But phones are not a high ticket item unless customers just want them to be. Old PBXs, and old pre-Internet phone thinking is very, very costly.

    This is the hardest thing for people to get over. They just expect phone systems to be SUPER expensive. They also expect HUGE up front fees to install a new system - because they know about any modern solutions.
    Though modern solutions have new problems they have to consider just as well.



  • Scott has apparently personally had super bad experiences with many local telcos for decades. Personally I haven't, at least no where near on the scale that Scott has, but I don't have the breath of exposure that he has either, but I also don't see the pains of posts in places like SW show people having these problems Scott's seen either, perhaps the sample size is to small?

    We had a Cox PRI for 7+ years... I have to assume it was PRIoIP because I can't believe that Cox ever put in real PRI equipment. We moved to Cox provided SIP and cut the bill in 2/3's... and we're now about to move to Skyetel to cut that bill in half (I hope - lack of old PBX logging means we have no idea how many actual mins we use).

    The main thing we really need to consider now is how this new SIP is delivered, and how reliable is it?

    We had the Cox PRI delivered over their high end fiber, they had some SBC issues that caused some downtime, but then, so could anyone.

    we are upgrading our internet from cable connection to Cox's lower tier fiber. With luck we won't have the issues we've been having recently with noise injected into the cable lines causing issues with our faxes and online meetings.



  • You can do this yourself with any sip trunk and hardware to convert to PRI. We use AdTran TOTAL Access 900e series for this as do some carriers.



  • @jt1001001 said in PRI over IP:

    You can do this yourself with any sip trunk and hardware to convert to PRI. We use AdTran TOTAL Access 900e series for this as do some carriers.

    This is what the current provider is offering.



  • Having used a PRI some years back with a MITEL system-
    I wouldnt today- though the Exec Dir was a tight wad on technology, it was a nonProfit.

    Having worked with Emergency services, we took analog Calls from 8 counties and 100miles away (not that distance matters) converted them to SIP and sent them back for 911.

    EDIT:
    No real sense In using a PRI any longer-

    Typed on a mobile device.



  • @gjacobse said in PRI over IP:

    No real since I’m using a PRI any longer-

    Can you restate this?



  • @JasGot said in PRI over IP:

    @gjacobse said in PRI over IP:

    No real since I’m using a PRI any longer-

    Can you restate this?

    Corrected- stupid phone auto correct.



  • @JasGot said in PRI over IP:

    @jt1001001 said in PRI over IP:

    You can do this yourself with any sip trunk and hardware to convert to PRI. We use AdTran TOTAL Access 900e series for this as do some carriers.

    This is what the current provider is offering.

    That's all anyone offers, it's the only realistic means of offering this today.



  • @Dashrender said in PRI over IP:

    Scott has apparently personally had super bad experiences with many local telcos for decades.

    Anyone who works in telephony has. It's the natural of it, it's a very risky service that has huge outages spread very far apart.



  • @Dashrender said in PRI over IP:

    I have to assume it was PRIoIP because I can't believe that Cox ever put in real PRI equipment.

    You would know because a real PRI has to have a T1 to delivery it. No T1, no PRI.



  • @Dashrender said in PRI over IP:

    The main thing we really need to consider now is how this new SIP is delivered, and how reliable is it?
    We had the Cox PRI delivered over their high end fiber, they had some SBC issues that caused some downtime, but then, so could anyone.

    No, you had SIP and are moving to SIP. You are just moving from an unreliable SIP that was designed to be riskier than necessary to one that doesn't have same risk.

    Don't call it PRI when it isn't. Real PRI and what is sold by hucksters today as PRI aren't the same technology, at all. Today it is all SIP. You just either get straight SIP for enterprise, or you get SIP that unnecessarily needs special, high cost equipment to make it look like it is PRI.

    You have to have more reliability concerns with PRI today than straight SIP because PRI includes any and all risks of SIP, plus the two totally unnecessary pieces of hardware and data conversion to go through SIP.



  • Worth noting that PRI can't carry modern phone audio quality or video. Features that are just considered expected and unquestioned today - high def audio and video, are just trimmed out by definition when using a PRI. It's audio only, and only with the poor quality g.711u codec. There's no opportunity for improved audio, adaptive handling of connection issues, or passing other data.



  • @scottalanmiller said in PRI over IP:

    Worth noting that PRI can't carry modern phone audio quality or video. Features that are just considered expected and unquestioned today - high def audio and video, are just trimmed out by definition when using a PRI. It's audio only, and only with the poor quality g.711u codec. There's no opportunity for improved audio, adaptive handling of connection issues, or passing other data.

    I think you're overselling this audio quality thing. Are there those that notice and care - of course, just like there are people who are willing to pay $1000's or more per speaker plus $1000's or more for tube amplifiers for music. But the reality is that normals don't care about that nearly as much. Does it sound like mr roboto? no, then it's likely good enough.



  • @Dashrender said in PRI over IP:

    @scottalanmiller said in PRI over IP:

    Worth noting that PRI can't carry modern phone audio quality or video. Features that are just considered expected and unquestioned today - high def audio and video, are just trimmed out by definition when using a PRI. It's audio only, and only with the poor quality g.711u codec. There's no opportunity for improved audio, adaptive handling of connection issues, or passing other data.

    I think you're overselling this audio quality thing. Are there those that notice and care - of course, just like there are people who are willing to pay $1000's or more per speaker plus $1000's or more for tube amplifiers for music. But the reality is that normals don't care about that nearly as much. Does it sound like mr roboto? no, then it's likely good enough.

    I think you overlook the unstated value of what people are starting to get used to. They don't necessarily vocalize or realize what it is that is wrong, it's just.... not right. People can tell when you use a cell phone but they rarely comment on it. Yet everyone hears it and knows instantly you aren't on a high quality line. Just like when you see 24p content on your TV, everyone senses that it looks wrong, but it's not the kind of thing "normals" as you put it, can describe accurately. But just because people can't tell you why they aren't as happy with something, or it sounds antiquated, cheap, or poorly managed, they still sense it.



  • @Dashrender said in PRI over IP:

    no, then it's likely good enough.

    This sums it up. That's like "it goes down from time to time, but not enough for people to complain". "Good enough" is a way of saying "noticeably not as good, but not so bad as to not be considered."

    In IT, good enough is normally what we say when we know something's wrong - when we know something isn't good, it's just not quite so bad as to be bad. And like IT, in real life, no one truly wants food that only edible, they actually prefer what is good. And a company that only provides "good enough" consistently, starts to be sensed as a failure.

    Think about yourself as an employee.... are you proud of where you work and the decisions that they make? If so, do you ever feel that way when you also say that the decisions are "good enough?" Of course not, it's what we say when no one's truly happy with it.


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