Collision Domain - In POS



  • wouldn't it be?

    All terminals/Server are on the same ethernet network and have access to the internet (in this site setup) and the Access point is routed to the network that the terminals and servers are on , just plugged into a different port, and also has an internet connection. So.. it would be routed ? or am I just not understanding ?



  • @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @scottalanmiller said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @scottalanmiller said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @travisdh1 said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @travisdh1 said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @travisdh1 said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    I have to ask the dumb question. How are tablets being connected to a wired network?

    Access point on the firewall routed to the wired network.

    FFS, there is the issue.

    I know you normally have a network dedicated to POS. That doesn't magically free up availability for the wifi network when things get busy. The wireless environment is probably clogged full when the place gets busy. That'll be your bottleneck.

    FFS explain what you mean? Nothing you just said makes any sense to me.

    The Tablet is Not Currently in Use.

    You've been talking about the wired network, but the tablets that are having issues aren't even connected to it.

    There's one tablet. the rest are Terminals hard wired just like a Desktop/laptop would be.

    Whether it is 1, or 100, that it has the issue, but isn't talking to the network, tells you that the network isn't the common shared component that by failing would cause the problem.

    Are you saying that it's not the tablet on a wireless network being routed?

    Blame it on not having enough coffee today, but I'm just not following.

    The tablet doesn't share the bottleneck locations as well as not being routed.

    But it is routed..

    Not in your network diagram, it isn't.



  • @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    wouldn't it be?

    All terminals/Server are on the same ethernet network and have access to the internet (in this site setup) and the Access point is routed to the network that the terminals and servers are on , just plugged into a different port, and also has an internet connection. So.. it would be routed ? or am I just not understanding ?

    Am I missing something, is there more to the network, there is a router between the wifi and the server? There can be, but that would be really weird. But certainly can be.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @scottalanmiller said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @scottalanmiller said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @travisdh1 said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @travisdh1 said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @travisdh1 said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    I have to ask the dumb question. How are tablets being connected to a wired network?

    Access point on the firewall routed to the wired network.

    FFS, there is the issue.

    I know you normally have a network dedicated to POS. That doesn't magically free up availability for the wifi network when things get busy. The wireless environment is probably clogged full when the place gets busy. That'll be your bottleneck.

    FFS explain what you mean? Nothing you just said makes any sense to me.

    The Tablet is Not Currently in Use.

    You've been talking about the wired network, but the tablets that are having issues aren't even connected to it.

    There's one tablet. the rest are Terminals hard wired just like a Desktop/laptop would be.

    Whether it is 1, or 100, that it has the issue, but isn't talking to the network, tells you that the network isn't the common shared component that by failing would cause the problem.

    Are you saying that it's not the tablet on a wireless network being routed?

    Blame it on not having enough coffee today, but I'm just not following.

    The tablet doesn't share the bottleneck locations as well as not being routed.

    But it is routed..

    Not in your network diagram, it isn't.

    I left out the access point and tablet cause I didn't think it mattered. The tablet sits in the office until they have an event.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    wouldn't it be?

    All terminals/Server are on the same ethernet network and have access to the internet (in this site setup) and the Access point is routed to the network that the terminals and servers are on , just plugged into a different port, and also has an internet connection. So.. it would be routed ? or am I just not understanding ?

    Am I missing something, is there more to the network, there is a router between the wifi and the server? There can be, but that would be really weird. But certainly can be.

    what?

    no, it's the fireall with a route put in by the Firewall management company (not us) to have the access point for the tablet connect to the same wired network .



  • @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @scottalanmiller said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    wouldn't it be?

    All terminals/Server are on the same ethernet network and have access to the internet (in this site setup) and the Access point is routed to the network that the terminals and servers are on , just plugged into a different port, and also has an internet connection. So.. it would be routed ? or am I just not understanding ?

    Am I missing something, is there more to the network, there is a router between the wifi and the server? There can be, but that would be really weird. But certainly can be.

    what?

    no, it's the fireall with a route put in by the Firewall management company (not us) to have the access point for the tablet connect to the same wired network .

    firewall = router. The terms have been synonymous for decades. So okay, it's routed, but outside of the network diagram.

    That seems like a big waste to expose the server anyway.



  • It sounds like this network is unlike your previously discussed networks -

    Do all devices have direct access to the internet?

    Is there Guest Wifi access for customers at this location?



  • @stacksofplates said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @scottalanmiller said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @scottalanmiller said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @scottalanmiller said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    So it's not a collision Domain because their Obsolete in wired networks due to switches -

    I'm not sure what else could be causing the issue other than bad cabling/ Bad terminals/ Bad switches.
    May be worth replacing the other bar switch and changing out the Cabling under the bar.

    So start with the basics and see what you can track down. If you are getting congestion or bad switches / cabling, you'd expect to see it even with a ping. Ping from device to device and see if you ever get latency or drops. If not, likely it's not a networking thing.

    Can you describe the freezing? Like if you do X which devices freeze. And if you do Y, these other devices freeze.

    Only information I have is " when we're Busy, and we try to order items on the terminals they run slow and freeze up. then it comes back then it shows up. the delay is anywhere from 15 seconds to 2 minutes"
    Nothing specific when it comes to what their doing on the terminals.

    Any reason that there is a network suspicion then, why not suspect the server?

    Cause it's the exact same image/setup as the other site they have, and the other site doesn't run slow what so ever.

    Still, many times more likely to be a hard drive or something.

    This. Something like that trans.log is being written to a single 5400 RPM drive.

    This is one of the first things I was thinking - super slow (possibly dieing) HDD. and even if it's new, doesn't mean it could be bad from the factory.

    I agree with scott this seems much less like a network issue, and more like a server issue (wither it's hardware or software, we don't have enough information yet).

    Setup a continuous ping from several of the PCs, check them when the staff complain about the application hanging, see if the pings hang too.

    might be worth turning on performance monitoring and have it monitor the HDD/RAM/CPU



  • @WrCombs Everything in the same network is being switched no matter if its wireless or wired. In order to route, you need to move the packets to a different network.



  • @Romo said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs Everything in the same network is being switched no matter if its wireless or wired. In order to route, you need to move the packets to a different network.

    To expand upon this, just because the router is involved, doesn't mean the packets are being routed. As you describe it the SSID is put onto the same network as the server and terminals, so there is no routing happening.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @scottalanmiller said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    wouldn't it be?

    All terminals/Server are on the same ethernet network and have access to the internet (in this site setup) and the Access point is routed to the network that the terminals and servers are on , just plugged into a different port, and also has an internet connection. So.. it would be routed ? or am I just not understanding ?

    Am I missing something, is there more to the network, there is a router between the wifi and the server? There can be, but that would be really weird. But certainly can be.

    what?

    no, it's the fireall with a route put in by the Firewall management company (not us) to have the access point for the tablet connect to the same wired network .

    firewall = router. The terms have been synonymous for decades. So okay, it's routed, but outside of the network diagram.

    That seems like a big waste to expose the server anyway.

    If it matters - It's a hidden Private network.
    Basically to connect to it, you need to know ssid, and password.



  • @Dashrender said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    It sounds like this network is unlike your previously discussed networks -

    it is different due to different version/software in the system requiring it.

    Do all devices have direct access to the internet?

    Yes

    Is there Guest Wifi access for customers at this location?

    from a different Source, yes. not tied into the Aloha system (its behind the firewall)



  • @Dashrender said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @Romo said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs Everything in the same network is being switched no matter if its wireless or wired. In order to route, you need to move the packets to a different network.

    To expand upon this, just because the router is involved, doesn't mean the packets are being routed. As you describe it the SSID is put onto the same network as the server and terminals, so there is no routing happening.

    I'm Guessing I just dont understand here; The access point is on a different port of the firewall, wouldn't that make it on a different network?



  • @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @scottalanmiller said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    wouldn't it be?

    All terminals/Server are on the same ethernet network and have access to the internet (in this site setup) and the Access point is routed to the network that the terminals and servers are on , just plugged into a different port, and also has an internet connection. So.. it would be routed ? or am I just not understanding ?

    Am I missing something, is there more to the network, there is a router between the wifi and the server? There can be, but that would be really weird. But certainly can be.

    what?

    no, it's the fireall with a route put in by the Firewall management company (not us) to have the access point for the tablet connect to the same wired network .

    One thing you will probably see a lot is that every network is going to be a little different in some aspects as people usually don't do good design, they just cobble things together in whatever fashion until it works. It sounds like that's what they did here. Your earlier comment about just having one switch with network drops to terminals is correct and generally how it should be done. So you can see all the ways this network is different and at least partly wrongly designed. I think you already know how a good network should be created in some way, at least at a basic level, so use that knowledge to apply to your troubleshooting.



  • @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @Dashrender said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @Romo said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs Everything in the same network is being switched no matter if its wireless or wired. In order to route, you need to move the packets to a different network.

    To expand upon this, just because the router is involved, doesn't mean the packets are being routed. As you describe it the SSID is put onto the same network as the server and terminals, so there is no routing happening.

    I'm Guessing I just dont understand here; The access point is on a different port of the firewall, wouldn't that make it on a different network?

    Not on its own, no. A port is just a physical attachment device. The ports can be routed between, or switches, or in theory hubbed (no one does this.) A Ubiquiti EdgeRouter for example you can choose to make ports switched or routed as needed.

    99% of firewalls/routers use switching between their ports, but that's because 99.9% of firewalls are consumer.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @Dashrender said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @Romo said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs Everything in the same network is being switched no matter if its wireless or wired. In order to route, you need to move the packets to a different network.

    To expand upon this, just because the router is involved, doesn't mean the packets are being routed. As you describe it the SSID is put onto the same network as the server and terminals, so there is no routing happening.

    I'm Guessing I just dont understand here; The access point is on a different port of the firewall, wouldn't that make it on a different network?

    Not on its own, no. A port is just a physical attachment device. The ports can be routed between, or switches, or in theory hubbed (no one does this.) A Ubiquiti EdgeRouter for example you can choose to make ports switched or routed as needed.

    99% of firewalls/routers use switching between their ports, but that's because 99.9% of firewalls are consumer.

    Thanks for explaining that



  • @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @scottalanmiller said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @Dashrender said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @Romo said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs Everything in the same network is being switched no matter if its wireless or wired. In order to route, you need to move the packets to a different network.

    To expand upon this, just because the router is involved, doesn't mean the packets are being routed. As you describe it the SSID is put onto the same network as the server and terminals, so there is no routing happening.

    I'm Guessing I just dont understand here; The access point is on a different port of the firewall, wouldn't that make it on a different network?

    Not on its own, no. A port is just a physical attachment device. The ports can be routed between, or switches, or in theory hubbed (no one does this.) A Ubiquiti EdgeRouter for example you can choose to make ports switched or routed as needed.

    99% of firewalls/routers use switching between their ports, but that's because 99.9% of firewalls are consumer.

    Thanks for explaining that

    This is TOTALLY a bullshit thing, but almost always is true.

    If the ports are spread far apart physically, they are almost always routed. If they are close together, they are almost always switched. It's a visual clue that most manufacturers follow.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @scottalanmiller said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @Dashrender said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @Romo said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs Everything in the same network is being switched no matter if its wireless or wired. In order to route, you need to move the packets to a different network.

    To expand upon this, just because the router is involved, doesn't mean the packets are being routed. As you describe it the SSID is put onto the same network as the server and terminals, so there is no routing happening.

    I'm Guessing I just dont understand here; The access point is on a different port of the firewall, wouldn't that make it on a different network?

    Not on its own, no. A port is just a physical attachment device. The ports can be routed between, or switches, or in theory hubbed (no one does this.) A Ubiquiti EdgeRouter for example you can choose to make ports switched or routed as needed.

    99% of firewalls/routers use switching between their ports, but that's because 99.9% of firewalls are consumer.

    Thanks for explaining that

    This is TOTALLY a bullshit thing, but almost always is true.

    If the ports are spread far apart physically, they are almost always routed. If they are close together, they are almost always switched. It's a visual clue that most manufacturers follow.

    Ahhh Okay makes a little more sense.. haha



  • @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @scottalanmiller said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @scottalanmiller said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    wouldn't it be?

    All terminals/Server are on the same ethernet network and have access to the internet (in this site setup) and the Access point is routed to the network that the terminals and servers are on , just plugged into a different port, and also has an internet connection. So.. it would be routed ? or am I just not understanding ?

    Am I missing something, is there more to the network, there is a router between the wifi and the server? There can be, but that would be really weird. But certainly can be.

    what?

    no, it's the fireall with a route put in by the Firewall management company (not us) to have the access point for the tablet connect to the same wired network .

    firewall = router. The terms have been synonymous for decades. So okay, it's routed, but outside of the network diagram.

    That seems like a big waste to expose the server anyway.

    If it matters - It's a hidden Private network.
    Basically to connect to it, you need to know ssid, and password.

    This is not a problem for someone who knows what they are doing.



  • @Dashrender said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @scottalanmiller said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @scottalanmiller said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @WrCombs said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    wouldn't it be?

    All terminals/Server are on the same ethernet network and have access to the internet (in this site setup) and the Access point is routed to the network that the terminals and servers are on , just plugged into a different port, and also has an internet connection. So.. it would be routed ? or am I just not understanding ?

    Am I missing something, is there more to the network, there is a router between the wifi and the server? There can be, but that would be really weird. But certainly can be.

    what?

    no, it's the fireall with a route put in by the Firewall management company (not us) to have the access point for the tablet connect to the same wired network .

    firewall = router. The terms have been synonymous for decades. So okay, it's routed, but outside of the network diagram.

    That seems like a big waste to expose the server anyway.

    If it matters - It's a hidden Private network.
    Basically to connect to it, you need to know ssid, and password.

    This is not a problem for someone who knows what they are doing.

    If they know what they are doing, it's a calling card. "Someone's hiding this thing, bet it's got something jucy inside!"



  • Great



  • @scottalanmiller said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    A Ubiquiti EdgeRouter for example you can choose to make ports switched or routed as needed.

    This is only true on the ER-X (Mediatek) devices as they have a switch chip. All other Cavium based devices do not and can merely be "bridged" which is done in software and is definitely not recommended.



  • @manxam said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    which is done in software and is definitely not recommended

    Why would you say that? Bridging is a perfectly acceptable functionality, built into every decent OS.

    It may not be the correct solution for the need. That is extremely common, but that is something determined.



  • @JaredBusch said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @manxam said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    which is done in software and is definitely not recommended

    Why would you say that? Bridging is a perfectly acceptable functionality, built into every decent OS.

    It may not be the correct solution for the need. That is extremely common, but that is something determined.

    And it's how all early switches were done. Hardware acceleration is nice, but just like with RAID, over time it falls behind software. Switching hardware is still faster, at scale, but as long as you are hitting line speeds, it doesn't matter at all.



  • @JaredBusch : Because Ubiquiti themselves recommend that this not be done as the CPUs in their offerings suffer greatly without offloading.
    Bridging an ER-3 which, from what I can tell, had been their #1 sell for many years hit 100% CPU when bridging 2 interfaces on a 100Mbps connection. This is without any additional NAT or firewall rules.
    Unless this is a DSL connection, this essentially makes it useless to most users.

    @scottalanmiller : I can't recall ever seeing a switch "back in the day" that didn't have ASICs. There are a few newer switches that do, in fact, use CPU rather than ASICs, but they're built using MUCH faster CPUs than what are included in most -- if not all -- routers.



  • @manxam said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    I can't recall ever seeing a switch "back in the day" that didn't have ASICs. There are a few newer switches that do, in fact, use CPU rather than ASICs, but they're built using MUCH faster CPUs than what are included in most -- if not all -- routers.

    Early days, the ASICs didn't even exist yet. It wasn't a choice, it was all that there was to use software. Then the ASICs came along and obviously dominated. But yes, it always requires throwing more hardware at it.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @manxam said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    I can't recall ever seeing a switch "back in the day" that didn't have ASICs. There are a few newer switches that do, in fact, use CPU rather than ASICs, but they're built using MUCH faster CPUs than what are included in most -- if not all -- routers.

    Early days, the ASICs didn't even exist yet. It wasn't a choice, it was all that there was to use software. Then the ASICs came along and obviously dominated. But yes, it always requires throwing more hardware at it.

    How far back are we going here? My first experience with a switch was with Alantec/FORE ATMs (circa early 91/2). These had a RISC SCP processor to run the OS/management functions and custom ASICs for switching. After that, in the more mainstream, came Kalpana and then Cisco. To the best of my knowledge, there were no switches available prior to thicknet (first commercial ethernet).

    I'd love more information if you have it available. I love the history of tech.



  • @manxam said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @scottalanmiller said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    @manxam said in Collision Domain - In POS:

    I can't recall ever seeing a switch "back in the day" that didn't have ASICs. There are a few newer switches that do, in fact, use CPU rather than ASICs, but they're built using MUCH faster CPUs than what are included in most -- if not all -- routers.

    Early days, the ASICs didn't even exist yet. It wasn't a choice, it was all that there was to use software. Then the ASICs came along and obviously dominated. But yes, it always requires throwing more hardware at it.

    How far back are we going here? My first experience with a switch was with Alantec/FORE ATMs (circa early 91/2). These had a RISC SCP processor to run the OS/management functions and custom ASICs for switching. After that, in the more mainstream, came Kalpana and then Cisco. To the best of my knowledge, there were no switches available prior to thicknet (first commercial ethernet).

    I'd love more information if you have it available. I love the history of tech.

    Not that far back, still 90s, but a lot of switches were all software in the middling to later 90s as the ASICs weren't broadly available.

    But even the very, very first ASICs were / are always based on working software prototypes.

    I've never seen a thicknet switch, what a freaking mess that must be.


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