Looking to Buy a SAN
-
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@Dashrender said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@coliver said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@ScottyBoy said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
I've recognized an IPOD and witnessed it play out.
In the end the business decided it made more financial sense to put 200 VMs in Azure.
This is for a TV station cloud simply isn't an option to run this stuff unfortunately.
My point is that putting a bunch of VMs in Azure is a pretty expensive solution, but dealing with an IPOD ends up costing the business enough that the cost is acceptable.
The other solution is to not design an IPOD.
Exactly. Buy a correctly sized Scale box - no IPOD... sure, huge upfront cost, but who knows over the long term compared to Azure. etc etc etc.. We don't have any of the other needed information to know if going to Azure was the right move or not... but it's done, so we move on.
Literally everything is cheap compared to Azure. LOL. Even with all their specialty serverless whatever, never seen it cost close to what running your own would do. The cost is just so absurd per workload.
Their serverless offering is on par with the rest. It's a million requests per month and 400,000 seconds of compute for free. After that it's only $0.20 per million executions and $0.000016 per second. That's not really expensive at all.
Here you used serverless pricing to say that you could use it to get the cost of Azure below having infrastructure of our own. How do we make it cheaper, if it's an additional cost rather than a replacement one? Wasn't the point of this to say that going all cloud would allow us to remove the cost of our own server? If not, what were you saying?
Nope. Never said that. I was replying to you saying "Even with all their specialty serverless whatever, never seen it cost close to what running your own would do. The cost is just so absurd per workload."
I said their serverless offering is on par with the rest. And it's cheaper than running serverless yourself if you use the free tier. You're grasping at straws here.
I was pointing out that even when you leverage serverless type stuff, because I know what it is and had already considered it, it wasn't enough to overcome all of the costs.
Responding that the serverless portion is on par with other providers is fine, but doesn't address the point that when taken together, it's not really cost competitive.
Again the only costs that were mentioned was directly related to serverless. You interjected your own ideas here and made a mountain out of nothing.
Then I apologize. Their serverless offerings are good value similar to the industry and I read into what was being said inappropriately.
No it's fine, I'm not trying to be combative. I maybe could have worded things better.
-
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@Dashrender said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@coliver said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@ScottyBoy said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
I've recognized an IPOD and witnessed it play out.
In the end the business decided it made more financial sense to put 200 VMs in Azure.
This is for a TV station cloud simply isn't an option to run this stuff unfortunately.
My point is that putting a bunch of VMs in Azure is a pretty expensive solution, but dealing with an IPOD ends up costing the business enough that the cost is acceptable.
The other solution is to not design an IPOD.
Exactly. Buy a correctly sized Scale box - no IPOD... sure, huge upfront cost, but who knows over the long term compared to Azure. etc etc etc.. We don't have any of the other needed information to know if going to Azure was the right move or not... but it's done, so we move on.
Literally everything is cheap compared to Azure. LOL. Even with all their specialty serverless whatever, never seen it cost close to what running your own would do. The cost is just so absurd per workload.
Their serverless offering is on par with the rest. It's a million requests per month and 400,000 seconds of compute for free. After that it's only $0.20 per million executions and $0.000016 per second. That's not really expensive at all.
Here you used serverless pricing to say that you could use it to get the cost of Azure below having infrastructure of our own. How do we make it cheaper, if it's an additional cost rather than a replacement one? Wasn't the point of this to say that going all cloud would allow us to remove the cost of our own server? If not, what were you saying?
Nope. Never said that. I was replying to you saying "Even with all their specialty serverless whatever, never seen it cost close to what running your own would do. The cost is just so absurd per workload."
I said their serverless offering is on par with the rest. And it's cheaper than running serverless yourself if you use the free tier. You're grasping at straws here.
I was pointing out that even when you leverage serverless type stuff, because I know what it is and had already considered it, it wasn't enough to overcome all of the costs.
Responding that the serverless portion is on par with other providers is fine, but doesn't address the point that when taken together, it's not really cost competitive.
Again the only costs that were mentioned was directly related to serverless. You interjected your own ideas here and made a mountain out of nothing.
Then I apologize. Their serverless offerings are good value similar to the industry and I read into what was being said inappropriately.
No it's fine, I'm not trying to be combative. I maybe could have worded things better.
We should do a serverless seminar. It would be great to have a solid talk on real world example use cases of where regular companies would have their best chances at trying it out.
-
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@Dashrender said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@coliver said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@ScottyBoy said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
I've recognized an IPOD and witnessed it play out.
In the end the business decided it made more financial sense to put 200 VMs in Azure.
This is for a TV station cloud simply isn't an option to run this stuff unfortunately.
My point is that putting a bunch of VMs in Azure is a pretty expensive solution, but dealing with an IPOD ends up costing the business enough that the cost is acceptable.
The other solution is to not design an IPOD.
Exactly. Buy a correctly sized Scale box - no IPOD... sure, huge upfront cost, but who knows over the long term compared to Azure. etc etc etc.. We don't have any of the other needed information to know if going to Azure was the right move or not... but it's done, so we move on.
Literally everything is cheap compared to Azure. LOL. Even with all their specialty serverless whatever, never seen it cost close to what running your own would do. The cost is just so absurd per workload.
Their serverless offering is on par with the rest. It's a million requests per month and 400,000 seconds of compute for free. After that it's only $0.20 per million executions and $0.000016 per second. That's not really expensive at all.
Here you used serverless pricing to say that you could use it to get the cost of Azure below having infrastructure of our own. How do we make it cheaper, if it's an additional cost rather than a replacement one? Wasn't the point of this to say that going all cloud would allow us to remove the cost of our own server? If not, what were you saying?
Nope. Never said that. I was replying to you saying "Even with all their specialty serverless whatever, never seen it cost close to what running your own would do. The cost is just so absurd per workload."
I said their serverless offering is on par with the rest. And it's cheaper than running serverless yourself if you use the free tier. You're grasping at straws here.
I was pointing out that even when you leverage serverless type stuff, because I know what it is and had already considered it, it wasn't enough to overcome all of the costs.
Responding that the serverless portion is on par with other providers is fine, but doesn't address the point that when taken together, it's not really cost competitive.
Again the only costs that were mentioned was directly related to serverless. You interjected your own ideas here and made a mountain out of nothing.
Then I apologize. Their serverless offerings are good value similar to the industry and I read into what was being said inappropriately.
No it's fine, I'm not trying to be combative. I maybe could have worded things better.
We should do a serverless seminar. It would be great to have a solid talk on real world example use cases of where regular companies would have their best chances at trying it out.
I'd definitely love to see an SMB (on the smaller side) example of that - how you deal with file shares, windows server apps, etc.
-
@Dashrender said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@Dashrender said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@coliver said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@ScottyBoy said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
I've recognized an IPOD and witnessed it play out.
In the end the business decided it made more financial sense to put 200 VMs in Azure.
This is for a TV station cloud simply isn't an option to run this stuff unfortunately.
My point is that putting a bunch of VMs in Azure is a pretty expensive solution, but dealing with an IPOD ends up costing the business enough that the cost is acceptable.
The other solution is to not design an IPOD.
Exactly. Buy a correctly sized Scale box - no IPOD... sure, huge upfront cost, but who knows over the long term compared to Azure. etc etc etc.. We don't have any of the other needed information to know if going to Azure was the right move or not... but it's done, so we move on.
Literally everything is cheap compared to Azure. LOL. Even with all their specialty serverless whatever, never seen it cost close to what running your own would do. The cost is just so absurd per workload.
Their serverless offering is on par with the rest. It's a million requests per month and 400,000 seconds of compute for free. After that it's only $0.20 per million executions and $0.000016 per second. That's not really expensive at all.
Here you used serverless pricing to say that you could use it to get the cost of Azure below having infrastructure of our own. How do we make it cheaper, if it's an additional cost rather than a replacement one? Wasn't the point of this to say that going all cloud would allow us to remove the cost of our own server? If not, what were you saying?
Nope. Never said that. I was replying to you saying "Even with all their specialty serverless whatever, never seen it cost close to what running your own would do. The cost is just so absurd per workload."
I said their serverless offering is on par with the rest. And it's cheaper than running serverless yourself if you use the free tier. You're grasping at straws here.
I was pointing out that even when you leverage serverless type stuff, because I know what it is and had already considered it, it wasn't enough to overcome all of the costs.
Responding that the serverless portion is on par with other providers is fine, but doesn't address the point that when taken together, it's not really cost competitive.
Again the only costs that were mentioned was directly related to serverless. You interjected your own ideas here and made a mountain out of nothing.
Then I apologize. Their serverless offerings are good value similar to the industry and I read into what was being said inappropriately.
No it's fine, I'm not trying to be combative. I maybe could have worded things better.
We should do a serverless seminar. It would be great to have a solid talk on real world example use cases of where regular companies would have their best chances at trying it out.
I'd definitely love to see an SMB (on the smaller side) example of that - how you deal with file shares, windows server apps, etc.
Serverless isn't for dealing with those types of loads, they are more akin to data processing, scheduled reports or what you might call batch processing. Moving Data from one place to another, sending emails. anything that's event triggered.
-
@Dashrender said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@Dashrender said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@coliver said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@ScottyBoy said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
I've recognized an IPOD and witnessed it play out.
In the end the business decided it made more financial sense to put 200 VMs in Azure.
This is for a TV station cloud simply isn't an option to run this stuff unfortunately.
My point is that putting a bunch of VMs in Azure is a pretty expensive solution, but dealing with an IPOD ends up costing the business enough that the cost is acceptable.
The other solution is to not design an IPOD.
Exactly. Buy a correctly sized Scale box - no IPOD... sure, huge upfront cost, but who knows over the long term compared to Azure. etc etc etc.. We don't have any of the other needed information to know if going to Azure was the right move or not... but it's done, so we move on.
Literally everything is cheap compared to Azure. LOL. Even with all their specialty serverless whatever, never seen it cost close to what running your own would do. The cost is just so absurd per workload.
Their serverless offering is on par with the rest. It's a million requests per month and 400,000 seconds of compute for free. After that it's only $0.20 per million executions and $0.000016 per second. That's not really expensive at all.
Here you used serverless pricing to say that you could use it to get the cost of Azure below having infrastructure of our own. How do we make it cheaper, if it's an additional cost rather than a replacement one? Wasn't the point of this to say that going all cloud would allow us to remove the cost of our own server? If not, what were you saying?
Nope. Never said that. I was replying to you saying "Even with all their specialty serverless whatever, never seen it cost close to what running your own would do. The cost is just so absurd per workload."
I said their serverless offering is on par with the rest. And it's cheaper than running serverless yourself if you use the free tier. You're grasping at straws here.
I was pointing out that even when you leverage serverless type stuff, because I know what it is and had already considered it, it wasn't enough to overcome all of the costs.
Responding that the serverless portion is on par with other providers is fine, but doesn't address the point that when taken together, it's not really cost competitive.
Again the only costs that were mentioned was directly related to serverless. You interjected your own ideas here and made a mountain out of nothing.
Then I apologize. Their serverless offerings are good value similar to the industry and I read into what was being said inappropriately.
No it's fine, I'm not trying to be combative. I maybe could have worded things better.
We should do a serverless seminar. It would be great to have a solid talk on real world example use cases of where regular companies would have their best chances at trying it out.
I'd definitely love to see an SMB (on the smaller side) example of that - how you deal with file shares, windows server apps, etc.
Those aren't things you solve with serverless architecture. It's things like APIs, message queue consumers, webhooks, database actions, etc.
Here's a good example. Your company uses both Quickbooks and Epicor (I don't know if Epicor supports outgoing webhooks but pretend they do for the example). An order comes in for widget A and you put that into Epicor as an order. As soon as that happens Epicor sends a webhook request to your serverless function that then interfaces with the Quickbooks API to create an invoice and send it to the customer.
Another example. You have a website that sells socks. An order comes in for a pair of socks and is put on the message queue to be consumed by a subscriber(s). Each subscriber does their work with the message including a serverless function that sends an email out to the customer informing them the order was received.
Another example is a full fledged API. https://cookies.hookiescookies.com/api/site/cookies. That's a real API endpoint running in a serverless function. There's also /api/ingredients/{ingredient-name}, /api/wholesale/cookies, and /api/cookie/{cookieId}.
The data for the API still lives in a database (it's FaunaDB), but I'm no longer in the business of managing NGINX, or Apache, or Tomcat, or a custom web server to handle it (I still had to write the router and such like I would with a custom webserver but that's easy). Any changes I need to make are only based on that function and it's automatically built and deployed for me. And it only runs when a request comes in.
-
Another real world example. We use GitLab for our projects and ServiceNow for tickets. I wrote a serverless function that takes webhooks from GitLab merge requests and opens a ServiceNow change request with the data from the GitLab merge request. That was manual work before. Now it's automated through that and I don't have to manage the service.
-
It goes beyond functions.
Serverless Kubernetes and container services.
Serverless application environments.
Don't forget about the CI/CD pipelines, which can pretty much do anything you want, even on-prem if want to host (an Azure) worker there (still 'serverless' in the other sense).
There's Serverless Automation, inventory, change tracking...
DSC (config management) without needing a server.Update management
Device management
etc... and it keeps growing.
-
@Obsolesce said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
It goes beyond functions.
Serverless Kubernetes and container services.
Serverless application environments.
Don't forget about the CI/CD pipelines, which can pretty much do anything you want, even on-prem if want to host (an Azure) worker there (still 'serverless' in the other sense).
There's Serverless Automation, inventory, change tracking...
DSC (config management) without needing a server.Update management
Device management
etc... and it keeps growing.
I think that confuses the idea. The only thing people refer to when they say serverless is functions like Lambda, GCP Cloud Functions, Azure Functions, etc. Things that only run when a request appears. The other things are SaaS offerings. By that definition any SaaS would be "serverless".
With things like GKE, EKS, ECS, etc you still have to manage the docker containers. That's just a hosted PaaS.
-
@thecreaitvone91 said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@Dashrender said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@Dashrender said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@coliver said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@ScottyBoy said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
I've recognized an IPOD and witnessed it play out.
In the end the business decided it made more financial sense to put 200 VMs in Azure.
This is for a TV station cloud simply isn't an option to run this stuff unfortunately.
My point is that putting a bunch of VMs in Azure is a pretty expensive solution, but dealing with an IPOD ends up costing the business enough that the cost is acceptable.
The other solution is to not design an IPOD.
Exactly. Buy a correctly sized Scale box - no IPOD... sure, huge upfront cost, but who knows over the long term compared to Azure. etc etc etc.. We don't have any of the other needed information to know if going to Azure was the right move or not... but it's done, so we move on.
Literally everything is cheap compared to Azure. LOL. Even with all their specialty serverless whatever, never seen it cost close to what running your own would do. The cost is just so absurd per workload.
Their serverless offering is on par with the rest. It's a million requests per month and 400,000 seconds of compute for free. After that it's only $0.20 per million executions and $0.000016 per second. That's not really expensive at all.
Here you used serverless pricing to say that you could use it to get the cost of Azure below having infrastructure of our own. How do we make it cheaper, if it's an additional cost rather than a replacement one? Wasn't the point of this to say that going all cloud would allow us to remove the cost of our own server? If not, what were you saying?
Nope. Never said that. I was replying to you saying "Even with all their specialty serverless whatever, never seen it cost close to what running your own would do. The cost is just so absurd per workload."
I said their serverless offering is on par with the rest. And it's cheaper than running serverless yourself if you use the free tier. You're grasping at straws here.
I was pointing out that even when you leverage serverless type stuff, because I know what it is and had already considered it, it wasn't enough to overcome all of the costs.
Responding that the serverless portion is on par with other providers is fine, but doesn't address the point that when taken together, it's not really cost competitive.
Again the only costs that were mentioned was directly related to serverless. You interjected your own ideas here and made a mountain out of nothing.
Then I apologize. Their serverless offerings are good value similar to the industry and I read into what was being said inappropriately.
No it's fine, I'm not trying to be combative. I maybe could have worded things better.
We should do a serverless seminar. It would be great to have a solid talk on real world example use cases of where regular companies would have their best chances at trying it out.
I'd definitely love to see an SMB (on the smaller side) example of that - how you deal with file shares, windows server apps, etc.
Serverless isn't for dealing with those types of loads, they are more akin to data processing, scheduled reports or what you might call batch processing. Moving Data from one place to another, sending emails. anything that's event triggered.
Which basically goes back to Scott's earlier point that serverless really isn't for most smaller SMBs. Not to say there is zero use for it, but presently I can't think of anything I'd use it for currently.... Could we create processes to use it? likely/sure, but currently we don't have any. We are a pretty simple shop.
Windows Server - file/print
Windows Server - AD
Windows server - backup
Windows Server - accounting software
hosted app - EHR
hosted app - O365 (eventually, hopefully - files will move here) -
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@Obsolesce said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
It goes beyond functions.
Serverless Kubernetes and container services.
Serverless application environments.
Don't forget about the CI/CD pipelines, which can pretty much do anything you want, even on-prem if want to host (an Azure) worker there (still 'serverless' in the other sense).
There's Serverless Automation, inventory, change tracking...
DSC (config management) without needing a server.Update management
Device management
etc... and it keeps growing.
I think that confuses the idea. The only thing people refer to when they say serverless is functions like Lambda, GCP Cloud Functions, Azure Functions, etc. Things that only run when a request appears. The other things are SaaS offerings. By that definition any SaaS would be "serverless".
With things like GKE, EKS, ECS, etc you still have to manage the docker containers. That's just a hosted PaaS.
All of what I mentioned is not SaaS offerings.
It's all part of this for example, their (Azure's) serverless arsenal:
- https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/solutions/serverless/
- https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/architecture/serverless/
- https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/architecture/reference-architectures/serverless/cloud-automation
- https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/architecture/serverless/guide/serverless-app-cicd-best-practices
Maybe it adds in to the confusion because it's not the primary serverless 'easy example' if you know what I mean.
-
@Obsolesce said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@Obsolesce said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
It goes beyond functions.
Serverless Kubernetes and container services.
Serverless application environments.
Don't forget about the CI/CD pipelines, which can pretty much do anything you want, even on-prem if want to host (an Azure) worker there (still 'serverless' in the other sense).
There's Serverless Automation, inventory, change tracking...
DSC (config management) without needing a server.Update management
Device management
etc... and it keeps growing.
I think that confuses the idea. The only thing people refer to when they say serverless is functions like Lambda, GCP Cloud Functions, Azure Functions, etc. Things that only run when a request appears. The other things are SaaS offerings. By that definition any SaaS would be "serverless".
With things like GKE, EKS, ECS, etc you still have to manage the docker containers. That's just a hosted PaaS.
All of what I mentioned is not SaaS offerings.
It's all part of this for example, their (Azure's) serverless arsenal:
- https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/solutions/serverless/
- https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/architecture/serverless/
- https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/architecture/reference-architectures/serverless/cloud-automation
- https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/architecture/serverless/guide/serverless-app-cicd-best-practices
Maybe it adds in to the confusion because it's not the primary serverless 'easy example' if you know what I mean.
If you read how they state it in those links, it's referenced not as serverless but whatever the thing is supporting serverless. An example from the CI/CD page:
This article discusses a CI/CD pipeline for the web frontend of a serverless reference implementation.
The solutions/serverless page isn't like that but Azure is the only provider I've seen call something serverless that wasn't functions. And a lot of their examples are kind of weird. Like the AKS one:
Elastically provision pods inside container instances that start in seconds without the need to manage additional compute resources.
That's just what kubernetes does? It's nothing that serverless provides, that's k8s job.
-
@Dashrender said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@thecreaitvone91 said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@Dashrender said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@Dashrender said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@coliver said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@ScottyBoy said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
I've recognized an IPOD and witnessed it play out.
In the end the business decided it made more financial sense to put 200 VMs in Azure.
This is for a TV station cloud simply isn't an option to run this stuff unfortunately.
My point is that putting a bunch of VMs in Azure is a pretty expensive solution, but dealing with an IPOD ends up costing the business enough that the cost is acceptable.
The other solution is to not design an IPOD.
Exactly. Buy a correctly sized Scale box - no IPOD... sure, huge upfront cost, but who knows over the long term compared to Azure. etc etc etc.. We don't have any of the other needed information to know if going to Azure was the right move or not... but it's done, so we move on.
Literally everything is cheap compared to Azure. LOL. Even with all their specialty serverless whatever, never seen it cost close to what running your own would do. The cost is just so absurd per workload.
Their serverless offering is on par with the rest. It's a million requests per month and 400,000 seconds of compute for free. After that it's only $0.20 per million executions and $0.000016 per second. That's not really expensive at all.
Here you used serverless pricing to say that you could use it to get the cost of Azure below having infrastructure of our own. How do we make it cheaper, if it's an additional cost rather than a replacement one? Wasn't the point of this to say that going all cloud would allow us to remove the cost of our own server? If not, what were you saying?
Nope. Never said that. I was replying to you saying "Even with all their specialty serverless whatever, never seen it cost close to what running your own would do. The cost is just so absurd per workload."
I said their serverless offering is on par with the rest. And it's cheaper than running serverless yourself if you use the free tier. You're grasping at straws here.
I was pointing out that even when you leverage serverless type stuff, because I know what it is and had already considered it, it wasn't enough to overcome all of the costs.
Responding that the serverless portion is on par with other providers is fine, but doesn't address the point that when taken together, it's not really cost competitive.
Again the only costs that were mentioned was directly related to serverless. You interjected your own ideas here and made a mountain out of nothing.
Then I apologize. Their serverless offerings are good value similar to the industry and I read into what was being said inappropriately.
No it's fine, I'm not trying to be combative. I maybe could have worded things better.
We should do a serverless seminar. It would be great to have a solid talk on real world example use cases of where regular companies would have their best chances at trying it out.
I'd definitely love to see an SMB (on the smaller side) example of that - how you deal with file shares, windows server apps, etc.
Serverless isn't for dealing with those types of loads, they are more akin to data processing, scheduled reports or what you might call batch processing. Moving Data from one place to another, sending emails. anything that's event triggered.
Which basically goes back to Scott's earlier point that serverless really isn't for most smaller SMBs. Not to say there is zero use for it, but presently I can't think of anything I'd use it for currently.... Could we create processes to use it? likely/sure, but currently we don't have any. We are a pretty simple shop.
Windows Server - file/print
Windows Server - AD
Windows server - backup
Windows Server - accounting software
hosted app - EHR
hosted app - O365 (eventually, hopefully - files will move here)Did you look at any of the examples I gave?
How does data from the EHR get to the accounting software?
How does a customer get notified of your online crap with Teams that you guys are doing?
How does the accounting software send out billing information?
-
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@Obsolesce said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@Obsolesce said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
It goes beyond functions.
Serverless Kubernetes and container services.
Serverless application environments.
Don't forget about the CI/CD pipelines, which can pretty much do anything you want, even on-prem if want to host (an Azure) worker there (still 'serverless' in the other sense).
There's Serverless Automation, inventory, change tracking...
DSC (config management) without needing a server.Update management
Device management
etc... and it keeps growing.
I think that confuses the idea. The only thing people refer to when they say serverless is functions like Lambda, GCP Cloud Functions, Azure Functions, etc. Things that only run when a request appears. The other things are SaaS offerings. By that definition any SaaS would be "serverless".
With things like GKE, EKS, ECS, etc you still have to manage the docker containers. That's just a hosted PaaS.
All of what I mentioned is not SaaS offerings.
It's all part of this for example, their (Azure's) serverless arsenal:
- https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/solutions/serverless/
- https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/architecture/serverless/
- https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/architecture/reference-architectures/serverless/cloud-automation
- https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/architecture/serverless/guide/serverless-app-cicd-best-practices
Maybe it adds in to the confusion because it's not the primary serverless 'easy example' if you know what I mean.
If you read how they state it in those links, it's referenced not as serverless but whatever the thing is supporting serverless. An example from the CI/CD page:
This article discusses a CI/CD pipeline for the web frontend of a serverless reference implementation.
The solutions/serverless page isn't like that but Azure is the only provider I've seen call something serverless that wasn't functions. And a lot of their examples are kind of weird. Like the AKS one:
Elastically provision pods inside container instances that start in seconds without the need to manage additional compute resources.
That's just what kubernetes does? It's nothing that serverless provides, that's k8s job.
I'm thinking more along the lines of serverless as the definition... really, BaaS. Those aren't SaaS... technically what you are referring to is FaaS (Functions).
I'm just going to have to gracefully disagree that "serverless" is and can be ONLY Lambda, AZ/GCP Functions, and other identical services, and nothing else.
-
@Dashrender said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@thecreaitvone91 said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@Dashrender said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@Dashrender said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@coliver said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@ScottyBoy said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
I've recognized an IPOD and witnessed it play out.
In the end the business decided it made more financial sense to put 200 VMs in Azure.
This is for a TV station cloud simply isn't an option to run this stuff unfortunately.
My point is that putting a bunch of VMs in Azure is a pretty expensive solution, but dealing with an IPOD ends up costing the business enough that the cost is acceptable.
The other solution is to not design an IPOD.
Exactly. Buy a correctly sized Scale box - no IPOD... sure, huge upfront cost, but who knows over the long term compared to Azure. etc etc etc.. We don't have any of the other needed information to know if going to Azure was the right move or not... but it's done, so we move on.
Literally everything is cheap compared to Azure. LOL. Even with all their specialty serverless whatever, never seen it cost close to what running your own would do. The cost is just so absurd per workload.
Their serverless offering is on par with the rest. It's a million requests per month and 400,000 seconds of compute for free. After that it's only $0.20 per million executions and $0.000016 per second. That's not really expensive at all.
Here you used serverless pricing to say that you could use it to get the cost of Azure below having infrastructure of our own. How do we make it cheaper, if it's an additional cost rather than a replacement one? Wasn't the point of this to say that going all cloud would allow us to remove the cost of our own server? If not, what were you saying?
Nope. Never said that. I was replying to you saying "Even with all their specialty serverless whatever, never seen it cost close to what running your own would do. The cost is just so absurd per workload."
I said their serverless offering is on par with the rest. And it's cheaper than running serverless yourself if you use the free tier. You're grasping at straws here.
I was pointing out that even when you leverage serverless type stuff, because I know what it is and had already considered it, it wasn't enough to overcome all of the costs.
Responding that the serverless portion is on par with other providers is fine, but doesn't address the point that when taken together, it's not really cost competitive.
Again the only costs that were mentioned was directly related to serverless. You interjected your own ideas here and made a mountain out of nothing.
Then I apologize. Their serverless offerings are good value similar to the industry and I read into what was being said inappropriately.
No it's fine, I'm not trying to be combative. I maybe could have worded things better.
We should do a serverless seminar. It would be great to have a solid talk on real world example use cases of where regular companies would have their best chances at trying it out.
I'd definitely love to see an SMB (on the smaller side) example of that - how you deal with file shares, windows server apps, etc.
Serverless isn't for dealing with those types of loads, they are more akin to data processing, scheduled reports or what you might call batch processing. Moving Data from one place to another, sending emails. anything that's event triggered.
Which basically goes back to Scott's earlier point that serverless really isn't for most smaller SMBs. Not to say there is zero use for it, but presently I can't think of anything I'd use it for currently.... Could we create processes to use it? likely/sure, but currently we don't have any. We are a pretty simple shop.
Windows Server - file/print
Windows Server - AD
Windows server - backup
Windows Server - accounting software
hosted app - EHR
hosted app - O365 (eventually, hopefully - files will move here)And honestly saying SMB doesn't mean anything. SMB is such a broad scope that it can mean anything. A flower shop can be considered small to medium as long as it does under 8 million dollars of revenue. That's a lot for a flower shop. There's a ton of "SMB" companies that leverage this stuff. SMB doesn't mean Grandpa's Butcher shop. It's anything ranging from businesses that just use a few windows desktops to companies that do a large amount of work.
Whether you agree with Garnter on the magic quadrant stuff, they do have a pulse on businesses. Here's how they define SMBs:
For the purposes of its research, Gartner defines SMBs by the number of employees and annual revenue they have. The attribute used most often is number of employees; small businesses are usually defined as organizations with fewer than 100 employees; midsize enterprises are those organizations with 100 to 999 employees.
The second most popular attribute used to define the SMB market is annual revenue: small business is usually defined as organizations with less than $50 million in annual revenue; midsize enterprise is defined as organizations that make more than $50 million, but less than $1 billion in annual revenue.
SBA has specific definitions for them: https://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files/2019-08/SBA Table of Size Standards_Effective Aug 19%2C 2019_Rev.pdf
SMB is a vast category that covers a ton of companies. A lot of them technology companies. There's tech companies out there using completely hosted cloud (including serverless) offerings and they have less employees than you guys and do more revenue than you guys. The landscape is changing drastically.
-
@Obsolesce said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@Obsolesce said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@Obsolesce said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
It goes beyond functions.
Serverless Kubernetes and container services.
Serverless application environments.
Don't forget about the CI/CD pipelines, which can pretty much do anything you want, even on-prem if want to host (an Azure) worker there (still 'serverless' in the other sense).
There's Serverless Automation, inventory, change tracking...
DSC (config management) without needing a server.Update management
Device management
etc... and it keeps growing.
I think that confuses the idea. The only thing people refer to when they say serverless is functions like Lambda, GCP Cloud Functions, Azure Functions, etc. Things that only run when a request appears. The other things are SaaS offerings. By that definition any SaaS would be "serverless".
With things like GKE, EKS, ECS, etc you still have to manage the docker containers. That's just a hosted PaaS.
All of what I mentioned is not SaaS offerings.
It's all part of this for example, their (Azure's) serverless arsenal:
- https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/solutions/serverless/
- https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/architecture/serverless/
- https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/architecture/reference-architectures/serverless/cloud-automation
- https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/architecture/serverless/guide/serverless-app-cicd-best-practices
Maybe it adds in to the confusion because it's not the primary serverless 'easy example' if you know what I mean.
If you read how they state it in those links, it's referenced not as serverless but whatever the thing is supporting serverless. An example from the CI/CD page:
This article discusses a CI/CD pipeline for the web frontend of a serverless reference implementation.
The solutions/serverless page isn't like that but Azure is the only provider I've seen call something serverless that wasn't functions. And a lot of their examples are kind of weird. Like the AKS one:
Elastically provision pods inside container instances that start in seconds without the need to manage additional compute resources.
That's just what kubernetes does? It's nothing that serverless provides, that's k8s job.
I'm thinking more along the lines of serverless as the definition... really, BaaS. Those aren't SaaS... technically what you are referring to is FaaS (Functions).
I'm just going to have to gracefully disagree that "serverless" is and can be ONLY Lambda, AZ/GCP Functions, and other identical services, and nothing else.
Yeah not trying to start an argument. It's just Azure is the only company I've seen market things like that.
-
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
Did you look at any of the examples I gave?
Yes, though they mention things I've never seen, so some I don't understand.
How does data from the EHR get to the accounting software?
by scraps of paper from our billing department - total income today from BCBS = $20,453.32, etc
How does a customer get notified of your online crap with Teams that you guys are doing?
I'm not sure what online crap you're talking about? You mean the meeting the customer/patient has been invited to? They get a meeting invite in email - how else would they get it? Teams handles sending the invite themselves.
Now Maybe - maybe something could be created in the EHR, that could hit a webhook on O365 that could auto generate the teams meeting in the correct provider's calendar and invite the patient... that could be cool...
How does the accounting software send out billing information?
we don't bill from the accounting software - that's completely inside the EHR. The EHR has all the insurance/patient billing stuff inside itself. The accounting software is mainly the internal business side of things, assets, accounts payable...Though I could see perhaps we could use it to have processes that could maybe pull that BCBS and other insurance payments from the EHR into the accounting software, and it could maybe pull in the payroll information as well - that's another hosted solution... Cool.
-
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@Obsolesce said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@Obsolesce said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@Obsolesce said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
It goes beyond functions.
Serverless Kubernetes and container services.
Serverless application environments.
Don't forget about the CI/CD pipelines, which can pretty much do anything you want, even on-prem if want to host (an Azure) worker there (still 'serverless' in the other sense).
There's Serverless Automation, inventory, change tracking...
DSC (config management) without needing a server.Update management
Device management
etc... and it keeps growing.
I think that confuses the idea. The only thing people refer to when they say serverless is functions like Lambda, GCP Cloud Functions, Azure Functions, etc. Things that only run when a request appears. The other things are SaaS offerings. By that definition any SaaS would be "serverless".
With things like GKE, EKS, ECS, etc you still have to manage the docker containers. That's just a hosted PaaS.
All of what I mentioned is not SaaS offerings.
It's all part of this for example, their (Azure's) serverless arsenal:
- https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/solutions/serverless/
- https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/architecture/serverless/
- https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/architecture/reference-architectures/serverless/cloud-automation
- https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/architecture/serverless/guide/serverless-app-cicd-best-practices
Maybe it adds in to the confusion because it's not the primary serverless 'easy example' if you know what I mean.
If you read how they state it in those links, it's referenced not as serverless but whatever the thing is supporting serverless. An example from the CI/CD page:
This article discusses a CI/CD pipeline for the web frontend of a serverless reference implementation.
The solutions/serverless page isn't like that but Azure is the only provider I've seen call something serverless that wasn't functions. And a lot of their examples are kind of weird. Like the AKS one:
Elastically provision pods inside container instances that start in seconds without the need to manage additional compute resources.
That's just what kubernetes does? It's nothing that serverless provides, that's k8s job.
I'm thinking more along the lines of serverless as the definition... really, BaaS. Those aren't SaaS... technically what you are referring to is FaaS (Functions).
I'm just going to have to gracefully disagree that "serverless" is and can be ONLY Lambda, AZ/GCP Functions, and other identical services, and nothing else.
Yeah not trying to start an argument. It's just Azure is the only company I've seen market things like that.
Yeah I gotcha, the Functions stuff and "Azure Automation" stuff is what got me into serverless in the first place, so that I know is the bread and butter... and I do realize going outside that gets gray.
-
@Dashrender said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
Now Maybe - maybe something could be created in the EHR, that could hit a webhook on O365 that could auto generate the teams meeting in the correct provider's calendar and invite the patient... that could be cool...
Yeah things like that is what I meant. Someone calling that number doesn't auto generate the meeting. A person has to answer the phone and set it up.
Though I could see perhaps we could use it to have processes that could maybe pull that BCBS and other insurance payments from the EHR into the accounting software, and it could maybe pull in the payroll information as well - that's another hosted solution... Cool.
Yeah that's manual work that shouldn't exist. Client A has procedure B or checkup or whatever. That's saved in the EHR software, and a webhook or some kind of payload is sent to the accounting software. Paper being passed around or even typing from one system to another is guaranteed mistakes.
-
@stacksofplates said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@Dashrender said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
Now Maybe - maybe something could be created in the EHR, that could hit a webhook on O365 that could auto generate the teams meeting in the correct provider's calendar and invite the patient... that could be cool...
Yeah things like that is what I meant. Someone calling that number doesn't auto generate the meeting. A person has to answer the phone and set it up.
Yeah, not sure that would work - I mean I suppose someone could make something that would tie into an auto-attendant phone system for voice prompts - but really I feel that would have to be on the side of the EHR, a hosted app.
I mean I suppose we could invest thousands or more into trying to access the data via API, generate our own IVR for patients to call, to automate the process, I just don't see that being signed off on. One of the things we previously 'prided' ourselves on was human contact first. At least this was the directive from the BOD. Pushing things to automation has previously not be desired, as it dehumanizes healthcare, at least in their opinion. Of course, we have a new crop of doctors, etc... so things can and do and will change.
-
I think this is pretty far off topic from "Looking to buy a SAN" even for magolassi lol.
