Need help for argument with Comcast
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@JasGot said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
@Dashrender said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
Who set this up? I mean I can't imagine that the customer set this up - if Comcast set default passwords that were weak, I would say that's on them.
Comcast did everything from porting, to providing the hardware, to installing the service and the hardware and providing training.
Well they have to do the porting, there's no way around that for them
What kind of training? End user training, or IT training, though?
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@scottalanmiller said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
Right, but not the IT, security, consulting, oversight, or knowledge. None of the pieces that provide protection
I would say this is not what Comcast led them to believe.
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@scottalanmiller said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
Well, at some point, they opted to not hire someone to oversee this and/or to not learn about it themselves.
This is certainly true.
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@JasGot said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
I would have to side with the customer here. Their expectations were that since Comcast was the provider for each and every aspect of the phone system, with a three year contract that includes support; that the IT side of it was Comcast's job.
Only if that's in the contract. Under no conditions of what you describe would that ever be implied, especially as Comcast is not an IT vendor.
Now the words "support" might mean that, but it doesn't imply it. It just implies the possibility, but not the expectation.
It's a bit like buying a BMW with absolute total maintenance coverage, but then expecting them to drive the car for you, too. Could they do that? Of course, but no amount of warranty covers that.
Totally supported solutions in other arenas, like email, or hyperconvergence, never include the IT piece. This would be a place where we are expecting this one situation to be totally different than all others that are similar. Not that it can't be, but unless it's really clearly stated somewhere, it's not a reasonable expectation.
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@scottalanmiller said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
If you can't change the extension passwords, then everything changes. If Comcast demands that the customer handle IT and truly doesn't allow them to, then you are all set.
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Then the conversation goes like this "I'm sorry Comcast, but you and only you control the IP, firewall, IDS, passwords, and other security mechanisms. Your allowance of third parties to use my phone system without my consent is a violation of my contract and of the law and now only can you not charge me for this, but we need to immediately discuss my compensation for your security breach of the system I paid you to provide."I'll confirm this in the morning. If it is true (and I do believe it is) I'll use your text to do battle with Comcast.
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@scottalanmiller said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
Totally supported solutions in other arenas, like email, or hyperconvergence, never include the IT piece. This would be a place where we are expecting this one situation to be totally different than all others that are similar. Not that it can't be, but unless it's really clearly stated somewhere, it's not a reasonable expectation.
True.
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I'll let you know what I find out in the morning. I hope for the customer's sake, they have absolutely no way to manage the SIP connections or firewall settings on the service.
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@JasGot said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
@scottalanmiller said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
Right, but not the IT, security, consulting, oversight, or knowledge. None of the pieces that provide protection
I would say this is not what Comcast led them to believe.
That's definitely possible, I'd not put anything past Comcast. But you also have the problem of "is there ever an excuse for having had the Comcast conversation in the first place?"
I mean think about it... we have a known bad actor that we can't trust and violates the infrastructure monopoly bundling rule in business (never bundle an unnecessary service with a monopoly infrastructure provider) that is just basic business common sense (so no IT knowledge needed) and at some point the customer decided that even though this is a company that everyone knows you can't trust and should never voluntarily do business with, they either allowed their sales people in the door and/or sought them out and engaged in business with them.
If you ask a person you know is going to try to trick you to do so, is it still a trick?
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@JasGot said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
I'll let you know what I find out in the morning. I hope for the customer's sake, they have absolutely no way to manage the SIP connections or firewall settings on the service.
Yeah, maybe Comcast screwed up on this one. I've done this "provide the legal wording to threaten Comcast" already three times this week for similar items!
The other two weren't quite as dramatic, but were "You used the word 'business' in reference to your product but it doesn't meet any baseline expectations that would be necessary to consider this a business product, but only a consumer product, so our contract is void."
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Not siding with Comcast but don’t forget there is the Companion application for Windows. There are also mobile apps to connect to the users accounts so they can do calls from the cell as if they are in the office. I had a client that signed up for voice edge a long time ago and I think they were responsible for setting up the accounts for the users.
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@syko24 said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
they were responsible
They who? Because this sounds like they bought the self managed solution so far. Which means it is totally on the customer. Sure Comcast might have set it all up. But with that solution, they are supposed to train and walk away.
Just because the customer thinks something, does not make it a fact.
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@JasGot said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
@JaredBusch said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
While true, and we all know that it is almost certainly not your customer's fault, this is completely irrelevant.
It's not irrelevant from the stand point I said this so you would understand they have no knowledge. That statement was for your benefit in this discussion.
Whether or not they have any knowledge absolutely is irrelevant.
Someone chose a solution and had the responsibility of making the decision. Sure they likely never changed a damned thing from when Comcast set it up. But, assuming the self managed as you mentioned in a later post, it is still the customer's responsibility to maintain their system.
Sure, some sucker at the customer got sold up a fucking river buy an unscrupulous vendor. But that does not take the responsibility off of the customer.
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@JaredBusch said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
@syko24 said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
they were responsible
They who? Because this sounds like they bought the self managed solution so far. Which means it is totally on the customer. Sure Comcast might have set it all up. But with that solution, they are supposed to train and walk away.
Just because the customer thinks something, does not make it a fact.
My bad, they being the customer had to create their own logins. The Comcast installer showed the office manager how to create the accounts and most likely suggested a basic password that would be reset when the user logged in for the first time.
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@scottalanmiller said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
@JasGot said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
So I think it's safe to say, these are lay people who have no idea about VoIP.
But they opted to be their own IT. What they know or understand doesn't matter because they decided to be their own IT.
It's like going to the pharmacy and just taking medication then finding out it hurts you or doesn't do what you thought - if you don't know your ailment and medications you are supposed to talk to a doctor and a pharmacist. There's nothing wrong with not being your own doctor, and there's no expectation of you being one, but if you opt to take things into your own hands, that's your decision but you are accountable for that decision.
You say this a lot, and I have to give it to you frequently, but I'm not there yet, at least not with phone systems.
So questions - Who made the passwords on the SIP/VOIP account? Comcast or the customer? If Comcast made default passwords, and the customer used those passwords, I'd clearly put this back on Comcast as having shitty default passwords, if the customer set them, well, then yeah, it's on them.
Second, who's phones are they? i.e. who installed the phones? If Comcast installed the phones, then again, it should be on Comcast, not the customer.
I do have little empathy for endusers/business owners who can't be bothered to have good passwords. If it has a password, it likely needs to for a pretty damned good reason, if it doesn't, then perhaps you should really consider just dumping whatever that thing is in the first place.
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@scottalanmiller said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
@JaredBusch said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
@JasGot said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
So I think it's safe to say, these are lay people who have no idea about VoIP.
While true, and we all know that it is almost certainly not your customer's fault, this is completely irrelevant.
Well, at some point, they opted to not hire someone to oversee this and/or to not learn about it themselves.
Unless they put some security in place that was bypassed, it certainly sounds like their fault. Did they request that International calling be turned off? Did they manage their passwords well?
Sure, Comcast could have done these things, but Comcast's whole selling point is that they are high cost and don't look after you at all. That's their service offering. If customers opt for that and there isn't any false claims, it really would be their fault.
Things like this should be off by default - you and I both know they are left on by default for exactly this reason - to basically allow the end user to screw up, and when they do, Comcast/the vendor, totally wins. Obviously, it's one of the things that makes them a shity vendor.. and while they aren't the only phone vendor option in almost any case, they very likely could be the only ISP option for many.
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Now having finished the thread - the self manage does kinda paint the customer into a corner. Assuming Comcast did come onsite and do that actual installation - assuming those passwords were set by a Comcast tech and never changed - which Comcast should be able to prove or disprove, I'd say if they were set by a comcast tech, it's on them.. if they were set by the customer, then its on them.
But I definitely see Scott, and maybe JB even saying, it doesn't matter who set them, it's the customer's responsibility because, self manage - and I'm just willing to bet it could flop either way in a court all because the install was done by the vendor and if the vendor used poor passwords to start, how in the hell can they expect the customer to use better ones? Regardless of how many times Scott says that these are businesses and they should be adulting, clearly, 95% don't, so it's really unreasonable to expect them to do better than the default, I'm thinking many courts would agree with that.
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@Dashrender said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
But I definitely see Scott, and maybe JB even saying, it doesn't matter who set them,
It does not matter who set them.
This scenario, assuming the self managed plan, is 100% the customer's fault.
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@Dashrender said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
@scottalanmiller said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
@JaredBusch said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
@JasGot said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
So I think it's safe to say, these are lay people who have no idea about VoIP.
While true, and we all know that it is almost certainly not your customer's fault, this is completely irrelevant.
Well, at some point, they opted to not hire someone to oversee this and/or to not learn about it themselves.
Unless they put some security in place that was bypassed, it certainly sounds like their fault. Did they request that International calling be turned off? Did they manage their passwords well?
Sure, Comcast could have done these things, but Comcast's whole selling point is that they are high cost and don't look after you at all. That's their service offering. If customers opt for that and there isn't any false claims, it really would be their fault.
Things like this should be off by default - you and I both know they are left on by default for exactly this reason - to basically allow the end user to screw up, and when they do, Comcast/the vendor, totally wins. Obviously, it's one of the things that makes them a shity vendor.. and while they aren't the only phone vendor option in almost any case, they very likely could be the only ISP option for many.
I agree that they leave it on for the customer to get screwed. However, it is the expectation of every customer I've ever spoken to that all options are on. And traditionally, international calling was always on. The idea that it can be removed or is removed is a relatively recent one and a pretty niche thing.
Remember, this is a consumer service being used by a business - there's no PBX and it doesn't behave like a business phone. Consumers always expect Int calling to be on.
It's a tough one, as lots of people expect it on. Even if you ask customers, they never seem to want Int calling off until AFTER something like this happens. People just don't think about what the risk is.
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@Dashrender said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
Assuming Comcast did come onsite and do that actual installation - assuming those passwords were set by a Comcast tech and never changed - which Comcast should be able to prove or disprove,
How in the fuck should that be possible? Are you saying someone should have a record of the passwords set originally? And then should be able to compare them to now? That is an insane level of auditing.
Have you done that for your new FreePBX system yet?
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@scottalanmiller said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
@Dashrender said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
@scottalanmiller said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
@JaredBusch said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
@JasGot said in Need help for argument with Comcast:
So I think it's safe to say, these are lay people who have no idea about VoIP.
While true, and we all know that it is almost certainly not your customer's fault, this is completely irrelevant.
Well, at some point, they opted to not hire someone to oversee this and/or to not learn about it themselves.
Unless they put some security in place that was bypassed, it certainly sounds like their fault. Did they request that International calling be turned off? Did they manage their passwords well?
Sure, Comcast could have done these things, but Comcast's whole selling point is that they are high cost and don't look after you at all. That's their service offering. If customers opt for that and there isn't any false claims, it really would be their fault.
Things like this should be off by default - you and I both know they are left on by default for exactly this reason - to basically allow the end user to screw up, and when they do, Comcast/the vendor, totally wins. Obviously, it's one of the things that makes them a shity vendor.. and while they aren't the only phone vendor option in almost any case, they very likely could be the only ISP option for many.
I agree that they leave it on for the customer to get screwed. However, it is the expectation of every customer I've ever spoken to that all options are on. And traditionally, international calling was always on. The idea that it can be removed or is removed is a relatively recent one and a pretty niche thing.
Remember, this is a consumer service being used by a business - there's no PBX and it doesn't behave like a business phone. Consumers always expect Int calling to be on.
It's a tough one, as lots of people expect it on. Even if you ask customers, they never seem to want Int calling off until AFTER something like this happens. People just don't think about what the risk is.
Please remember that he is in Nebraska. They don't know that there is a place that is not the United States.
