Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish



  • @scottalanmiller said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    @Emad-R said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    System76 cheapest option 1000$ my hardware is like 300-400$

    Okay then, Raspberry Pi 4. Full computer for about $70. Every peripheral "just works" on Linux. Whey the fuck would you blow $300 for a struggling piece of crap Windows machine when for half that you can have a nice power friendly Linux one with even better driver support?

    Screenshot or it didn't happen, right?

    I'm quoting this as it's one of the rare times that SAM has dropped an f bomb



  • @Emad-R said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    @Obsolesce said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    @Emad-R said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    System76 cheapest option 1000$ my hardware is like 300-400$

    What kind of nice gaming gpus are you talking about in a $300 system? I think you are full of it.

    https://www.jeremymorgan.com/blog/linux/pine64-pro-laptop-review/

    My smartphone has more resources than that crap...

    ASRock DeskMini A300W AMD Socket AM4 AMD A300 1 x HDMI Barebone System
    244.99 CAD

    AMD 2200G
    Was on sale got it for 100 CAD

    samsung 970 evo plus 250gb
    90 CAD

    total
    340.56 United States Dollar

    And RAM 8-16 GB, started with 8 then updated

    So that's $340 base. Plus you need the RAM, maybe that's $50. Then $100 of Windows. Just to get it up and running. But you can run Linux on the same system and get slightly better performance for 27% less money.



  • @DustinB3403 said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    @scottalanmiller said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    @Emad-R said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    System76 cheapest option 1000$ my hardware is like 300-400$

    Okay then, Raspberry Pi 4. Full computer for about $70. Every peripheral "just works" on Linux. Whey the fuck would you blow $300 for a struggling piece of crap Windows machine when for half that you can have a nice power friendly Linux one with even better driver support?

    Screenshot or it didn't happen, right?

    I'm quiting this as it's one of the rare times that SAM has dropped an f bomb

    It's funny to see this thread while we are in the middle of working on replacing Windows machines with Ubuntu for half the cost, because it makes the clients more efficient with fewer support needs, fewer driver issues, fewer update issues, etc.

    Given that this past week was one of the most dramatic "Windows has so many problems" weeks where licensing, drivers, patching, cost, etc. all hit the average business pretty hard.

    We are talking to customers who are facing fork lifts of their entire environment to make Windows function .... or maybe they will just move to Linux and eliminate the issue entirely.



  • For those not aware. MSRP on Windows 10 is $139 (for Home.) Amazon and a few other main stream, legit retailers cut their margins to ribbons and sell it for $119. This is roughly the base legit price that you can get. Anything significantly below this cannot be from Microsoft as the retailer has to pay roughly that amount for the license to sell to you. There is no such thing as a "discount" on software like this, it logically cannot exist.



  • @Emad-R said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    but it just takes alot of effort and patience to make linux work with peripherals and once you do keeping your system up to date is difficult it might botch your manual configs..

    My guess here is that you have one or two extremely isolated, niche Windows-only peripherals that no one would normally use that are you stuck with for some reason. My guess is that the cost of these peripherals is a couple of dollars, which is small compared to the cost of Windows. These are likely not supported on Linux because they are old and effectively unused and they work on Windows because the vendor had to make drivers for something so that they could sell them long ago and no one works on them anymore and they just happen to still work on Windows so you are lucky.

    If you use unsupported drivers on any OS it's going to make things complicated to maintain. Just try getting drivers working on Windows that aren't written for it, then tell me which is harder.

    The simple answer is... never do this with any OS. You'd never consider it with Windows, macOS, Solaris, so don't consider it with Linux even though Linux is so powerful and easy that it seems like maybe you can get away with it. No OS can make that process truly easy, Linux simply makes it possible. That you experience this frustration is actually proof that Linux is kicking the crap out of everyone else in ease of use because it's just "impossible" with every other OS.

    Your take away here is backwards, you are frustrated with Linux for making something previously impossible into just something "hard" instead of being frustrated with junk peripherals and too hard to even try Windows. You are taking a real problem, and getting angry at the solution maker.

    In the real world, peripheral are normally purchased to work in a specific ecosystem. Why do you have peripherals that are only for Windows, but are running Linux? Are you trying to use "whatever is lying around", or did you buy something without checking first? In the first case, okay, but the cost of Windows ($120 - $140 per machine) adds up fast compared to what, a $5 USB dongle?

    A quick search turned up a $3 adapter built for Linux (but not Windows), or this well ranked one that works for both: TPLink USB Wifi Dongle. Given those numbers, an older wifi dongle likely has a value of somewhere between $1 and $5, tops. A tiny fraction of the cost of Windows to fix a simple problem. Plus wifi is the kind of thing you want new from time to time, new standards, tech and all.

    Somewhere is there expensive peripherals that only work on Windows? Sure. And the same for Linux. One thing we deal with literally every day is $10K+ equipment that isn't just Windows only, but old Windows only and can't be patched, maintained, or kept in any environment with HIPAA, PCI, etc. That's something that really never happens in the Linux world, but is continuous in the Windows world - those "Windows only" drivers are rarely maintained and seem like a good, supported deal when purchased but screw the customer when patches need to be applied and they learn that "Windows compatible" rarely means very much.



  • We have one staffer that feels that they can't use Linux because they have special apps and do special non-IT tasks that require things that don't run on Linux. And the make a good case for it. However, in their case, those special apps don't run on Windows, either, and they need a macOS machine.

    So in the only example that we have readily in house, the idea that "there are cases that every OS is needed, sometimes" certainly holds up. But that Windows meets the needs by "doing everything" completely doesn't. It doesn't do our normal IT tasks well, it doesn't work well on our IT and standard management hardware, and when it comes to "special needs", it fails just as much as Linux does.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    @Emad-R said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    What about GPU performance? and drivers for that

    Yup, extremely good. Works just the same for me. So that's a non-issue unless you are doing something crazy.

    Especially with ATI. They have repos you just pull the vendor drivers from.



  • @stacksofplates said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    @scottalanmiller said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    @Emad-R said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    What about GPU performance? and drivers for that

    Yup, extremely good. Works just the same for me. So that's a non-issue unless you are doing something crazy.

    Especially with ATI. They have repos you just pull the vendor drivers from.

    Oh yeah, AMD/ATI are great. Way better on Windows, too. I recently moved my big machine that used Nvidia over to AMD/ATI and what a difference it made for the drivers. Same thing on our Linux desktops (we did those a while ago, like 1+ years ago.) They got so much better just using AMD.



  • Responding from a machine that Windows doesn't support its hardware 🙂



  • @scottalanmiller said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    Responding from a machine that Windows doesn't support its hardware 🙂

    Same 🤭



  • @Obsolesce said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    @scottalanmiller said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    Responding from a machine that Windows doesn't support its hardware 🙂

    Same 🤭

    I should have said a desktop device. LOL. I could have been on a phone and that wouldn't have meant much 😉



  • @scottalanmiller said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    @Emad-R said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    I know this will get alot of hate, but it just takes alot of effort and patience to make linux work with peripherals and once you do keeping your system up to date is difficult it might botch your manual configs..

    Actually I find the opposite. We have continuous issues with Windows (but less than in the past for sure) and essentially zero with Linux.

    LOL - I've been waiting on this post since I read the OP!

    ROFLOL - Scott almost always seem to have this sitting there for nearly any occasion.



  • @Dashrender said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    Scott almost always seem to have this sitting there for nearly any occasion.

    Well it's an every day thing. We run Linux for one set of users and Windows for another. And Windows generates essentially 100% of the support needs. All kinds of problems, all the time. It's an MSP gold mine. As long as we avoid it internally, that it has problems is great for us, it pays the bills. We only recommend it when a customer really needs it. And they only really need it when they've created a situation that forces that on themselves. So we never feel badly that it is out there, the customers are always creating these problems for themselves, we do all we can to protect them from themselves. So that it generates hours like crazy anyway, is just good job assurance.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    it has problems is great for us, it pays the bills. We only recommend it when a customer really needs it. And they only really

    of course -



  • @scottalanmiller said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    @Emad-R said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    I know this will get alot of hate, but it just takes alot of effort and patience to make linux work with peripherals and once you do keeping your system up to date is difficult it might botch your manual configs..

    Actually I find the opposite. We have continuous issues with Windows (but less than in the past for sure) and essentially zero with Linux. In fact, when printing to our Brother printers here in the office, anyone with Windows has to get someone with Ubuntu to print for them! On Ubuntu it works with zero config, on Windows, it always breaks.

    Good luck finding printer driver and PPD file and all the manual config to get quality prints, sure Linux may print, but my exp was bad margins. man its so left out google dont provide downloads for it gdrive client. everything is hack or workaround . why do we do this again ?



  • @Emad-R said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    Good luck finding printer driver and PPD file and all the manual config to get quality prints, sure Linux may print, but my exp was bad margins. man its so left out google dont provide downloads for it gdrive client. everything is hack or workaround . why do we do this again ?

    WUT?

    You went from printer margins to gdrive issues and there not being a fat client..



  • @scottalanmiller said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    mRemoteNG

    Cause windows is better at managing Linux at a scale. you have many softwares for that

    WinSCP
    mRemoteNG

    Linux is just server, and it uses SSH as single port of administrator, so my point is with Windows you get the best of everything. and once your inside Linux server your in, it doesnt matter from where you SShed from.

    My point is the best linux admin tool is windows



  • @Emad-R said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    @scottalanmiller said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    mRemoteNG

    Cause windows is better at managing Linux at a scale. you have many softwares for that

    WinSCP
    mRemoteNG

    Linux is just server, and it uses SSH as single port of administrator, so my point is with Windows you get the best of everything. and once your inside Linux server your in, it doesnt matter from where you SShed from.

    My point is the best linux admin tool is windows

    https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/260/099/be0.png



  • @Emad-R said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    @scottalanmiller said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    @Emad-R said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    I know this will get alot of hate, but it just takes alot of effort and patience to make linux work with peripherals and once you do keeping your system up to date is difficult it might botch your manual configs..

    Actually I find the opposite. We have continuous issues with Windows (but less than in the past for sure) and essentially zero with Linux. In fact, when printing to our Brother printers here in the office, anyone with Windows has to get someone with Ubuntu to print for them! On Ubuntu it works with zero config, on Windows, it always breaks.

    Good luck finding printer driver and PPD file and all the manual config to get quality prints, sure Linux may print, but my exp was bad margins. man its so left out google dont provide downloads for it gdrive client. everything is hack or workaround . why do we do this again ?

    That's the point. It IS easier, consistently. Zero issues. Zero. Windows, yeah, constant driver issues.

    Nothing is a hack, no workarounds, ever.



  • @Emad-R said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    @scottalanmiller said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    mRemoteNG

    Cause windows is better at managing Linux at a scale. you have many softwares for that

    WinSCP
    mRemoteNG

    Linux is just server, and it uses SSH as single port of administrator, so my point is with Windows you get the best of everything. and once your inside Linux server your in, it doesnt matter from where you SShed from.

    My point is the best linux admin tool is windows

    No one piece of this is making sense. SSH is like RDP, it's just a protocol. Windows uses it too.

    I can, and do, admin Windows from Linux because, at any scale, it makes my life easier. Not as easy as not having Windows at all, but if I have to work on it, I might as well be efficient.

    Windows uses SSH just like Linux. So it is easy.



  • @Emad-R said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    Cause windows is better at managing Linux at a scale. you have many softwares for that
    WinSCP
    mRemoteNG

    Linux has all this kind of stuff, too. And both have it built in. You don't need third party software from Windows or Linux to do SSH remotely. And all of it is bidirectional. SSH works the same from and to either platform.

    Why dont you use Windows' own tools? I have to use Windows to work on Linux every day, and I never see a need for extra tools. The built in ones work really well.



  • @Emad-R said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    why do we do this again ?

    We do it because it's the easiest, most reliable, least problematic, most stable, broadest support, least effort, least hacking and manual config option available. Every reason you say not to use it, is exactly why. Because everything you are finding hard we consistently find to be zero effort. Absolutely all the hardware that we'd want to use in the real world "just works", even when on Windows it does not. It allows us to work easily on old hardware that Windows can't handle. On hardware types that Windows won't consider. Because it lowers our cost.

    Business owners understand that it's the TCO and as a business owner, Linux makes my team more efficient to get work done, while lowering their cost to support. It's that simple.



  • From a Linux Desktop, you can browse multiple protocols without additional applications. I personally use FileZilla Client but I've also use WinSCP too.

    From a Nautilus File Manager:
    09c6d0cc-c2a1-48f2-a4e6-ed38f88df9ce-image.png



  • @Emad-R said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    @scottalanmiller said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    mRemoteNG

    Cause windows is better at managing Linux at a scale. you have many softwares for that

    WinSCP
    mRemoteNG

    Linux is just server, and it uses SSH as single port of administrator, so my point is with Windows you get the best of everything. and once your inside Linux server your in, it doesnt matter from where you SShed from.

    My point is the best linux admin tool is windows

    You're just trolling at this point. You've either literally never used a Linux based OS or you are making false claims on purpose. Because saying things like WinSCP is good for managing Linux at scale clearly shows you have no clue what's going on. Maybe "at scale" to you is like 6 machines?

    Btw you still haven't responded to any posts that have real world examples.



  • @stacksofplates said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    Btw you still haven't responded to any posts that have real world examples.

    Classic troll behavior.



  • @Emad-R said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    @scottalanmiller said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    @Emad-R said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    I know this will get alot of hate, but it just takes alot of effort and patience to make linux work with peripherals and once you do keeping your system up to date is difficult it might botch your manual configs..

    Actually I find the opposite. We have continuous issues with Windows (but less than in the past for sure) and essentially zero with Linux. In fact, when printing to our Brother printers here in the office, anyone with Windows has to get someone with Ubuntu to print for them! On Ubuntu it works with zero config, on Windows, it always breaks.

    Good luck finding printer driver and PPD file and all the manual config to get quality prints, sure Linux may print, but my exp was bad margins. man its so left out google dont provide downloads for it gdrive client. everything is hack or workaround . why do we do this again ?

    You do know that most large scale print shops and printers have a Linux print server/controller built into them right?



  • @black3dynamite said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    From a Linux Desktop, you can browse multiple protocols without additional applications. I personally use FileZilla Client but I've also use WinSCP too.

    From a Nautilus File Manager:
    09c6d0cc-c2a1-48f2-a4e6-ed38f88df9ce-image.png

    I don't consider this quite a fair comparison. Linux distros are mostly made by and for techies. There need/desire for these tools to be included seems obvious. Windows on the other hand is meant for the masses, and those tools would be unused by 95% or more.
    So sure - it's cool they are there, but that's about all.



  • @Dashrender said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    @black3dynamite said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    From a Linux Desktop, you can browse multiple protocols without additional applications. I personally use FileZilla Client but I've also use WinSCP too.

    From a Nautilus File Manager:
    09c6d0cc-c2a1-48f2-a4e6-ed38f88df9ce-image.png

    I don't consider this quite a fair comparison. Linux distros are mostly made by and for techies. There need/desire for these tools to be included seems obvious. Windows on the other hand is meant for the masses, and those tools would be unused by 95% or more.
    So sure - it's cool they are there, but that's about all.

    I'd argue it's mostly because windows doesn't natively support other protocols. You can browse SMB shares from explorer because it's natively supported. I'd be willing to bet if windows supported NFS or SSHFS or SFTP or any other protocols you would be able to do it in explorer.



  • @black3dynamite said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    @scottalanmiller said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    IT people love Windows, because Windows screws end users and creates loads and loads of otherwise unnecessary IT jobs.

    Before I go to bed, I always give thanks to Windows for providing me some job security.
    🙏🏿

    Hear hear!



  • @jmoore said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    @black3dynamite said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    @scottalanmiller said in Using GNU\Linux on your workstation is rubbish:

    IT people love Windows, because Windows screws end users and creates loads and loads of otherwise unnecessary IT jobs.

    Before I go to bed, I always give thanks to Windows for providing me some job security.
    🙏🏿

    Hear hear!

    Praise be!


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