Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?



  • Which one is most important when looking at growth?

    I guess some other variables that are important:
    Company size
    team size
    Innovation (future focused or always catching up?)



  • @IRJ said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    Which one is most important when looking at growth?

    I guess some other variables that are important:
    Company size
    team size
    Innovation (future focused or always catching up?)

    Career growth? I suppose it depends on what you value. It's subjective.



  • It depends on the kinds of jobs. If you want to work for crappy companies that average lower pay and bad conditions, title will matter a bit. For a good job, they won't even look at it most likely. Anyone hiring with any competence or anyone who has been a manager for a minute knows that titles are total BS and exist only to impress the unemployed at a bar.

    Salary and responsibility both play huge roles. One explains what you did, the other explains what value you and your employer previously agreed you were worth to that company.

    So knowing responsibilities tells a hiring manager what kind of thing you can do, salary tells him at what level you were expected to do it.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    Salary and responsibility both play huge roles. One explains what you did, the other explains what value you and your employer previously agreed you were worth to that company.

    So knowing responsibilities tells a hiring manager what kind of thing you can do, salary tells him at what level you were expected to do it.

    I never reveal my old (current) salary to potential employer or a recruiter. All that matters is my demand for the new role. It's up for them to decide through my history and interview process if I am worth that rate.



  • @IRJ said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    It's up for them to decide through my history and interview process if I am worth that rate.

    Some will argue that salary history is a key part of your history. On Wall St., for example, salary history is used to show what level you were at.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @IRJ said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    It's up for them to decide through my history and interview process if I am worth that rate.

    Some will argue that salary history is a key part of your history. On Wall St., for example, salary history is used to show what level you were at.

    The problem is that you could always lie about it. Because its not something HR is required to reveal to a new employer.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    If you want to work for crappy companies that average lower pay and bad conditions, title will matter a bit.

    It was funny to interview CIOs and IT directors for mid level jobs in enterprise. They named themselves CIO because there were two IT employees or whatever, but they were probably making $50k or something lol.

    We used to laugh at those people internally when looking at their resumes. It is IMO always a good thing to show a bit of progression when switching to a new role. The amount of progression doesnt have to be huge, but going from "CIO" to analyst totally can kill your legitimacy of nearly anything on your resume.



  • @IRJ said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @scottalanmiller said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @IRJ said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    It's up for them to decide through my history and interview process if I am worth that rate.

    Some will argue that salary history is a key part of your history. On Wall St., for example, salary history is used to show what level you were at.

    The problem is that you could always lie about it. Because its not something HR is required to reveal to a new employer.

    Don't need HR. Pay slips or tax records show it.



  • @IRJ said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @scottalanmiller said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    If you want to work for crappy companies that average lower pay and bad conditions, title will matter a bit.

    It was funny to interview CIOs and IT directors for mid level jobs in enterprise. They named themselves CIO because there were two IT employees or whatever, but they were probably making $50k or something lol.

    We used to laugh at those people internally when looking at their resumes. It is IMO always a good thing to show a bit of progression when switching to a new role. The amount of progression doesnt have to be huge, but going from "CIO" to analyst totally can kill your legitimacy of nearly anything on your resume.

    So true. Every large shop I know looks for "IT Manager", Director, and CIO titles and something to support them. Those are flags to look into someone's background. Once you have a Manager title, you are pretty much stuck never taking a trenches job again. And if you take a job with manager in the title and you aren't a real manager, no real manager position will consider your experience valid.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @IRJ said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @scottalanmiller said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @IRJ said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    It's up for them to decide through my history and interview process if I am worth that rate.

    Some will argue that salary history is a key part of your history. On Wall St., for example, salary history is used to show what level you were at.

    The problem is that you could always lie about it. Because its not something HR is required to reveal to a new employer.

    Don't need HR. Pay slips or tax records show it.

    I dont think they can legally ask for that?



  • @IRJ said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @scottalanmiller said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @IRJ said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @scottalanmiller said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @IRJ said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    It's up for them to decide through my history and interview process if I am worth that rate.

    Some will argue that salary history is a key part of your history. On Wall St., for example, salary history is used to show what level you were at.

    The problem is that you could always lie about it. Because its not something HR is required to reveal to a new employer.

    Don't need HR. Pay slips or tax records show it.

    I dont think they can legally ask for that?

    that's a good question - and one that I bet is based on state. I've heard of employers doing credit checks on employees. This ensure they are financially responsible, at least in the eyes of the credit agencies...



  • @IRJ said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @scottalanmiller said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @IRJ said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @scottalanmiller said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @IRJ said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    It's up for them to decide through my history and interview process if I am worth that rate.

    Some will argue that salary history is a key part of your history. On Wall St., for example, salary history is used to show what level you were at.

    The problem is that you could always lie about it. Because its not something HR is required to reveal to a new employer.

    Don't need HR. Pay slips or tax records show it.

    I dont think they can legally ask for that?

    A lot of people have looked into that one and it's always come back that they can. Very possible that people are wrong, but this is an industry with more scruteny than anywhere and it's universal. Would be pretty shocking if it wasn't completely legal.



  • @IRJ said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @scottalanmiller said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @IRJ said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @scottalanmiller said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @IRJ said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    It's up for them to decide through my history and interview process if I am worth that rate.

    Some will argue that salary history is a key part of your history. On Wall St., for example, salary history is used to show what level you were at.

    The problem is that you could always lie about it. Because its not something HR is required to reveal to a new employer.

    Don't need HR. Pay slips or tax records show it.

    I dont think they can legally ask for that?

    https://www.hrdive.com/news/salary-history-ban-states-list/516662/

    So they can't, if they are in NYC. They can if they are outside the city. Most hire from outside the city, not sure how the city would get triggered given how people are hired.



  • But starting in 2020, it will be banned in NY.



  • I looked it up a bit and it appears that when they do ask for salary history, they ask for it during application process. Then they are able to verify after doing the hiring.

    It isnt illegal for you to refuse to provide it, although in some states they can throw you out as a candidate if you do not provide. Essentially the only time they would know your previous salary would be while doing onboarding stuff, so at that point you would have already accepted an offer.



  • @IRJ said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    I looked it up a bit and it appears that when they do ask for salary history, they ask for it during application process. Then they are able to verify after doing the hiring.

    It isnt illegal for you to refuse to provide it, although in some states they can throw you out as a candidate if you do not provide. Essentially the only time they would know your previous salary would be while doing onboarding stuff, so at that point you would have already accepted an offer.

    I find this bit kinda strange - I'm guessing it's not illegal to not provide any information when applying for a job - of course, the company can likely generally use lack of provided information as a reason to not hire you. 😉



  • All this does is encourages you to change jobs every several years.

    If you start at some company for example at $150k, and you stay there for 3-4 years, you'll likely be at $175k+ from raises. Then you change jobs, and can likely start at $200k+. Rinse and repeat.



  • @Obsolesce said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    All this does is encourages you to change jobs every several years.

    If you start at some company for example at $150k, and you stay there for 3-4 years, you'll likely be at $175k+ from raises. Then you change jobs, and can likely start at $200k+. Rinse and repeat.

    It does, it is why IT heavily encourages people to not remain anywhere for long.



  • @Dashrender said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @IRJ said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    I looked it up a bit and it appears that when they do ask for salary history, they ask for it during application process. Then they are able to verify after doing the hiring.

    It isnt illegal for you to refuse to provide it, although in some states they can throw you out as a candidate if you do not provide. Essentially the only time they would know your previous salary would be while doing onboarding stuff, so at that point you would have already accepted an offer.

    I find this bit kinda strange - I'm guessing it's not illegal to not provide any information when applying for a job - of course, the company can likely generally use lack of provided information as a reason to not hire you. 😉

    No, it's illegal to do so. This isn't weird or hard. It's very simple.

    In fact, if you provide too much, it pretty much guarantees that you can't get hired. There are so many "things we can't know" that if someone tells you that stuff, you could be forced to not hire them.



  • For me, when I'm looking for a new role I tend to gravitate toward the type and quality of work and the quality of the company. Salary has been an important secondary concern in my last few positions, though I've been lucky enough that I haven't needed to worry much about that much due to demand for Cloud Architects and Engineers, and my flexibility as it relates to relocation. And most of the roles I have taken in the last five years have been somewhat innovative due to the nature of the work and the technologies being used (cloud-native services, serverless event-driven architectures, ML, etc...).

    I haven't really cared about my title for quite some time now. I've had one role where my title changed seven times in less than 2 years. In the last five years alone I've been an Operations Systems Administrator, Systems Engineer, DevOps Engineer, Cloud Engineer, and Cloud Architect. Across all of those titles, I've done the same type of work with varying degrees of seniority, responsibilities, and focus.

    When it comes to disclosing previous salaries I've been pretty open when I am actively pursuing opportunities. I'm not going to devote hours of conversation and meetings with an organization just to find out the pay and benefits are not where they need to be. That's disrespectful of their time, and a waste of mine. I'll usually discuss that within the first couple of meetings with a recruiter or HR representative, and if appropriate I disclose it without prompting. I've not had a circumstance where it has had a negative result, and in the most recent offer I accepted (last week) I think it helped. In the right situation, I think it is an easy and low-risk means of establishing an open dialogue of trust. Now if a recruiter is contacting me about a role out of the blue, I rarely give out my current salary or even an indication of it until I've had time to research the opportunity. And I can't recollect having anyone outright ask me for my current salary.



  • @RamblingBiped said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    When it comes to disclosing previous salaries I've been pretty open when I am actively pursuing opportunities. I'm not going to devote hours of conversation and meetings with an organization just to find out the pay and benefits are not where they need to be. That's disrespectful of their time, and a waste of mine. I'll usually discuss that within the first couple of meetings with a recruiter or HR representative, and if appropriate I disclose it without prompting.

    I agree with you about time wasting which is why it's one of my first questions. As in salary is discussed on first contact about the position.

    I dont agree about disclosing my old salary. Why does it even matter? My requirements now are X which is obviously more than my old salary of Y. Only X is relevant in a conversation with a potential employer. They should already realize that money is a big motivating factor especially in Cloud architecture and DevOps. Many employers try to hire people for 6 months + for those positions so they know they have to open their pockets.



  • @IRJ said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @RamblingBiped said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    When it comes to disclosing previous salaries I've been pretty open when I am actively pursuing opportunities. I'm not going to devote hours of conversation and meetings with an organization just to find out the pay and benefits are not where they need to be. That's disrespectful of their time, and a waste of mine. I'll usually discuss that within the first couple of meetings with a recruiter or HR representative, and if appropriate I disclose it without prompting.

    I agree with you about time wasting which is why it's one of my first questions. As in salary is discussed on first contact about the position.

    I dont agree about disclosing my old salary. Why does it even matter? My requirements now are X which is obviously more than my old salary of Y. Only X is relevant in a conversation with a potential employer. They should already realize that money is a big motivating factor especially in Cloud architecture and DevOps. Many employers try to hire people for 6 months + for those positions so they know they have to open their pockets.

    I always get the salary range even before I consider discussing the job with anyone in any real context.

    They know anyone worth a damn is going to ask straight away anyways.

    I never reveal my previous salary. I'm not saying I never will, but during recruitment in the past I haven't. When asked, I've redirected with stating something along the lines of the salary range I'm looking for and it was never more than that.

    I'll keep leaving it to my gut to decide after judging the situation, but so far it's been as mentioned.



  • @Obsolesce said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @IRJ said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @RamblingBiped said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    When it comes to disclosing previous salaries I've been pretty open when I am actively pursuing opportunities. I'm not going to devote hours of conversation and meetings with an organization just to find out the pay and benefits are not where they need to be. That's disrespectful of their time, and a waste of mine. I'll usually discuss that within the first couple of meetings with a recruiter or HR representative, and if appropriate I disclose it without prompting.

    I agree with you about time wasting which is why it's one of my first questions. As in salary is discussed on first contact about the position.

    I dont agree about disclosing my old salary. Why does it even matter? My requirements now are X which is obviously more than my old salary of Y. Only X is relevant in a conversation with a potential employer. They should already realize that money is a big motivating factor especially in Cloud architecture and DevOps. Many employers try to hire people for 6 months + for those positions so they know they have to open their pockets.

    They know anyone worth a damn is going to ask straight away anyways.

    Yep lol



  • @Obsolesce said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    I always get the salary range even before I consider discussing the job with anyone in any real context.

    Oh yeah, at least a ballpark. Because that's the primary way that people/companies define the "level" of a job. A "Senior UNIX Admin" can mean $60K or $300K in the same market. Just one is a company that tops out at "entry level" and the other likely starts at "pretty darn senior." Only salary really clearly informs you what the real level and expectations are.

    And as salary is the primary reason that people work, knowing the expectation of compensation is kind of the foundation of even being willing to have a discussion about employment.



  • @Obsolesce said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    I never reveal my previous salary. I'm not saying I never will, but during recruitment in the past I haven't. When asked, I've redirected with stating something along the lines of the salary range I'm looking for and it was never more than that.

    I've walked out when requested before.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @Obsolesce said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    I always get the salary range even before I consider discussing the job with anyone in any real context.

    Only salary really clearly informs you what the real level and expectations are.

    I like that statement because job descriptions are so ridiculous, they virtually mean nothing.



  • @IRJ said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @scottalanmiller said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @Obsolesce said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    I always get the salary range even before I consider discussing the job with anyone in any real context.

    Only salary really clearly informs you what the real level and expectations are.

    I like that statement because job descriptions are so ridiculous, they virtually mean nothing.

    I've seen IT manager for $40k lol. But that's a fake title anyways.



  • @Obsolesce said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @IRJ said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @scottalanmiller said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @Obsolesce said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    I always get the salary range even before I consider discussing the job with anyone in any real context.

    Only salary really clearly informs you what the real level and expectations are.

    I like that statement because job descriptions are so ridiculous, they virtually mean nothing.

    I've seen IT manager for $40k lol. But that's a fake title anyways.

    Probably one man IT guy for 100 employees lol



  • @IRJ said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @Obsolesce said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @IRJ said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @scottalanmiller said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    @Obsolesce said in Salary, Responsibilities, or Title?:

    I always get the salary range even before I consider discussing the job with anyone in any real context.

    Only salary really clearly informs you what the real level and expectations are.

    I like that statement because job descriptions are so ridiculous, they virtually mean nothing.

    I've seen IT manager for $40k lol. But that's a fake title anyways.

    Probably one man IT guy for 100 employees lol

    Most likely.

    There are also situations where there are SME's that have 100 employees, with X remote business clients that have a 2-3 person IT department employees depending upon the services they provide. If that is the case, is the person managing the other 2+ techs considered to be a manager?



  • @IRJ It mattered in my most recent offer because I'm relocating from the Bay Area to the Midwest. I offered my salary up in the conversation because it was useful when discussing total compensation as it relates to what I'm currently making, and where I want to be with the position I was interviewing for. The cost of living in the area of the Midwest I'm moving to is drastically different than most larger Metropolitan areas, let alone the Bay Area / Silicon Valley. I think it helped them put together an acceptable offer quicker than if I had not volunteered the information.

    I do agree with you though, your current salary shouldn't be a point of discussion or contention. If a recruiter or hiring manager were to make it a point to probe me on the topic it would be an immediate red flag.


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