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    Making a Raspberry Pi 4 or Similar SBC Desktop

    IT Discussion
    raspberry pi raspberry pi 4 linux linux desktop
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    • scottalanmillerS
      scottalanmiller
      last edited by

      The Khadas VIM3 looks really promising. It's quite a bit more powerful than the similar RockChip models. Sext core, 4GB, HDMI, M.2, etc.

      scottalanmillerS 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
      • 1
        1337 @scottalanmiller
        last edited by

        @scottalanmiller said in Making a Raspberry Pi 4 or Similar SBC Desktop:

        @Pete-S said in Making a Raspberry Pi 4 or Similar SBC Desktop:

        Right now the storage and the GPU performance is what holds the RPI4 back the most.

        Maybe Raspberry Pi 5 will be it. (But I've been thinking that since the first Rasberry Pi, 7 or 8 years ago)

        The GPU is plenty, I think, for me. Need extremely little. But the storage, that's a killer.

        The GPU performance might not be a GPU performance problem itself but rather a lack of support in the GPU for decoding common video streams. For instance VP8/VP9 (WebM) are used in things like youtube, html5 video, video conferencing etc.

        When the system encounters a video stream and it doesn't have hardware decoding support, it needs the power to decode it in real-time with the CPU or you end up with stuttering video. RPI 4 doesn't have that power on 1080p.

        scottalanmillerS 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
        • scottalanmillerS
          scottalanmiller @1337
          last edited by

          @Pete-S said in Making a Raspberry Pi 4 or Similar SBC Desktop:

          The GPU performance might not be a GPU performance problem itself but rather a lack of support in the GPU for decoding common video streams. For instance VP8/VP9 (WebM) are used in things like youtube, html5 video, video conferencing etc.

          OIC, shouldn't be an issue here, won't be used for that. But very good to be aware of.

          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
          • scottalanmillerS
            scottalanmiller @Emad R
            last edited by

            @Emad-R said in Making a Raspberry Pi 4 or Similar SBC Desktop:

            @scottalanmiller

            ROCK Pi 4
            https://rockpi.org/

            So after more research, this one is bubbling up to the top over and over again. Low cost (found it for $75) with great specs (6 core, 4GB) and the connector that we need (M.2 and GigE.) Likely this is what we are going to start with.

            Emad RE 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
            • scottalanmillerS
              scottalanmiller @scottalanmiller
              last edited by

              @scottalanmiller said in Making a Raspberry Pi 4 or Similar SBC Desktop:

              The Khadas VIM3 looks really promising. It's quite a bit more powerful than the similar RockChip models. Sext core, 4GB, HDMI, M.2, etc.

              So the issues here...

              4GB model is $130 which is a little high. PoE and hard drive connectors are on an expansion board for another $30 or so. By the time all is said and done, it adds up a bit. The Rock Pi offers nearly the same CPU but from a bigger vendor, with the same RAM and the drive connector that we want all on a board for half the price and only a single board instead of two boards that have to be mounted together.

              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
              • Emad RE
                Emad R @scottalanmiller
                last edited by Emad R

                @scottalanmiller said in Making a Raspberry Pi 4 or Similar SBC Desktop:

                @Emad-R said in Making a Raspberry Pi 4 or Similar SBC Desktop:

                @scottalanmiller

                ROCK Pi 4
                https://rockpi.org/

                So after more research, this one is bubbling up to the top over and over again. Low cost (found it for $75) with great specs (6 core, 4GB) and the connector that we need (M.2 and GigE.) Likely this is what we are going to start with.

                I'm sensing YT Video review idea

                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                • ObsolesceO
                  Obsolesce
                  last edited by

                  I've been thinking about this too, to turn a smart TV into a genius TV. Something permanently attached would be convenient.

                  travisdh1T 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • travisdh1T
                    travisdh1 @Obsolesce
                    last edited by

                    @Obsolesce said in Making a Raspberry Pi 4 or Similar SBC Desktop:

                    I've been thinking about this too, to turn a smart TV into a genius TV. Something permanently attached would be convenient.

                    If nothing else, you can always velcro a case to the back of the TV. I bet you could also print off a mount from thingiverse if you have a makerspace somewhere close (or your own 3d printer, but that's not so common yet.)

                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • scottalanmillerS
                      scottalanmiller
                      last edited by

                      We are talking about getting a 3D printer for not just custom cases for this project, but custom wall racks.

                      travisdh1T 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                      • travisdh1T
                        travisdh1 @scottalanmiller
                        last edited by

                        @scottalanmiller said in Making a Raspberry Pi 4 or Similar SBC Desktop:

                        We are talking about getting a 3D printer for not just custom cases for this project, but custom wall racks.

                        If you've done any 3D modeling in the past, the current tools are so, so much easier to use. Still not something just anyone can just pickup and do, but the consumer 3D printers tend to have all the software wrapped up and taken care of, unlike in the past. The tooling workflows from the 90s that I dealt with were atrocious.

                        scottalanmillerS 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • scottalanmillerS
                          scottalanmiller @travisdh1
                          last edited by

                          @travisdh1 said in Making a Raspberry Pi 4 or Similar SBC Desktop:

                          @scottalanmiller said in Making a Raspberry Pi 4 or Similar SBC Desktop:

                          We are talking about getting a 3D printer for not just custom cases for this project, but custom wall racks.

                          If you've done any 3D modeling in the past, the current tools are so, so much easier to use. Still not something just anyone can just pickup and do, but the consumer 3D printers tend to have all the software wrapped up and taken care of, unlike in the past. The tooling workflows from the 90s that I dealt with were atrocious.

                          I've not, but I have worked extensively in manufacturing.

                          travisdh1T 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • travisdh1T
                            travisdh1 @scottalanmiller
                            last edited by

                            @scottalanmiller said in Making a Raspberry Pi 4 or Similar SBC Desktop:

                            @travisdh1 said in Making a Raspberry Pi 4 or Similar SBC Desktop:

                            @scottalanmiller said in Making a Raspberry Pi 4 or Similar SBC Desktop:

                            We are talking about getting a 3D printer for not just custom cases for this project, but custom wall racks.

                            If you've done any 3D modeling in the past, the current tools are so, so much easier to use. Still not something just anyone can just pickup and do, but the consumer 3D printers tend to have all the software wrapped up and taken care of, unlike in the past. The tooling workflows from the 90s that I dealt with were atrocious.

                            I've not, but I have worked extensively in manufacturing.

                            It's what I was supporting in the late 90s. The 3D printers of today really are that much better, and free software that is actually usable is available today.

                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • IRJI
                              IRJ @1337
                              last edited by

                              @Pete-S said in Making a Raspberry Pi 4 or Similar SBC Desktop:

                              Problem with RPI4 is that when you want it to be as fast as possible, you are getting close to the Intel price range. So as an option it works best if you stick to a basic config.

                              And to get a useable desktop you also need a monitor, a keyboard and a mouse. Say $150 if you have modest needs.

                              So

                              • Desktop with RPI4 (4GB RAM & 32GB microSD) $250
                              • Desktop with NUC J3455 or similar (8GB RAM & 120GB SSD) $325

                              The desktop with the Intel CPU has probably double the performance for 30% higher overall price. So value for money is better - if you need the extra performance.

                              NUC are also SBCs and the Odroid H2 mentioned above is the same (Intel J4105).

                              Intel CPUs to look for that are low-end but still significantly faster - J3455 (older model), J4105 and J5005. These are 10W Celerons with 4 cores in the 1.5 to 2.5GHz range.

                              Obviously something like an i3 is much faster but it will bump up the price another notch.

                              This is where I stand as well. We got into a discussion at one of my old employers about possibly deploying linux thin clients. Most people instantly thought about RPI, but I basically said the same thing as @Pete-S . The long term value is not there compared to a low end desktop even when using as a thin client. I think alot of people are in love with the idea of RP, but RP really shines when used for very low end tasks that can be done with a $40 RP.

                              DashrenderD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                              • scottalanmillerS
                                scottalanmiller @1337
                                last edited by

                                @Pete-S said in Making a Raspberry Pi 4 or Similar SBC Desktop:

                                Desktop with RPI4 (4GB RAM & 32GB microSD) $250
                                Desktop with NUC J3455 or similar (8GB RAM & 120GB SSD) $325

                                So in running our numbers, it came out more like...

                                Rock Pi, 4GB, 120GB SSD: $145
                                NUC J3455, 4GB, 120GB SSD: $220

                                The NUC is $150 with no RAM, but it has a case. The Rock Pi is $75 and has RAM, but needs a case. We can custom make the cases ourselves and get something really cool and custom for $10 or so. The NUC case is well built, but seriously ugly. So assuming 4GB RAM is $10, it's basically $75 premium for the NUC and you can ignore things like the drives because you'd use the same drive in both situations.

                                You can easily get more than 4GB RAM on the NUC which is a huge deal, if you need it, but we don't think that we do. The Rock Pi is also a significantly more powerful machine than the Raspberry Pi, both in CPU (faster six core compared to slower four core; M.2 drive connector vs. USB only.) And we believe will be more than fast enough for the needs.

                                We are looking at the same hardware for servers, so having it be exactly the same between the two is great.

                                $75 sounds trivial, but it is also more than 50% more expensive. In absolute dollars, it is small. In relative dollars, it is huge.

                                1 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                • DashrenderD
                                  Dashrender @IRJ
                                  last edited by

                                  @IRJ said in Making a Raspberry Pi 4 or Similar SBC Desktop:

                                  @Pete-S said in Making a Raspberry Pi 4 or Similar SBC Desktop:

                                  Problem with RPI4 is that when you want it to be as fast as possible, you are getting close to the Intel price range. So as an option it works best if you stick to a basic config.

                                  And to get a useable desktop you also need a monitor, a keyboard and a mouse. Say $150 if you have modest needs.

                                  So

                                  • Desktop with RPI4 (4GB RAM & 32GB microSD) $250
                                  • Desktop with NUC J3455 or similar (8GB RAM & 120GB SSD) $325

                                  The desktop with the Intel CPU has probably double the performance for 30% higher overall price. So value for money is better - if you need the extra performance.

                                  NUC are also SBCs and the Odroid H2 mentioned above is the same (Intel J4105).

                                  Intel CPUs to look for that are low-end but still significantly faster - J3455 (older model), J4105 and J5005. These are 10W Celerons with 4 cores in the 1.5 to 2.5GHz range.

                                  Obviously something like an i3 is much faster but it will bump up the price another notch.

                                  This is where I stand as well. We got into a discussion at one of my old employers about possibly deploying linux thin clients. Most people instantly thought about RPI, but I basically said the same thing as @Pete-S . The long term value is not there compared to a low end desktop even when using as a thin client. I think alot of people are in love with the idea of RP, but RP really shines when used for very low end tasks that can be done with a $40 RP.

                                  It's frustrating to talk about deploying 'thin clients' when the damned device costs the same, or in some cases more than a full blown PC with a Windows license.

                                  scottalanmillerS 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • scottalanmillerS
                                    scottalanmiller @Dashrender
                                    last edited by

                                    @Dashrender said in Making a Raspberry Pi 4 or Similar SBC Desktop:

                                    @IRJ said in Making a Raspberry Pi 4 or Similar SBC Desktop:

                                    @Pete-S said in Making a Raspberry Pi 4 or Similar SBC Desktop:

                                    Problem with RPI4 is that when you want it to be as fast as possible, you are getting close to the Intel price range. So as an option it works best if you stick to a basic config.

                                    And to get a useable desktop you also need a monitor, a keyboard and a mouse. Say $150 if you have modest needs.

                                    So

                                    • Desktop with RPI4 (4GB RAM & 32GB microSD) $250
                                    • Desktop with NUC J3455 or similar (8GB RAM & 120GB SSD) $325

                                    The desktop with the Intel CPU has probably double the performance for 30% higher overall price. So value for money is better - if you need the extra performance.

                                    NUC are also SBCs and the Odroid H2 mentioned above is the same (Intel J4105).

                                    Intel CPUs to look for that are low-end but still significantly faster - J3455 (older model), J4105 and J5005. These are 10W Celerons with 4 cores in the 1.5 to 2.5GHz range.

                                    Obviously something like an i3 is much faster but it will bump up the price another notch.

                                    This is where I stand as well. We got into a discussion at one of my old employers about possibly deploying linux thin clients. Most people instantly thought about RPI, but I basically said the same thing as @Pete-S . The long term value is not there compared to a low end desktop even when using as a thin client. I think alot of people are in love with the idea of RP, but RP really shines when used for very low end tasks that can be done with a $40 RP.

                                    It's frustrating to talk about deploying 'thin clients' when the damned device costs the same, or in some cases more than a full blown PC with a Windows license.

                                    I think that that is really only true because of bad expectations. Why do people feel that thin clients should be cheaper to purchase than thick clients? That's not been the case for so long, it's weird that people have a memory of it, and was never true on any scale.

                                    Thin clients have to do a lot of processing, and always have. And most "thin clients" are only thin in use, nothing else. You want them to be smart, be manageable, and most people expect them to run their own apps, making them fat, not thin.

                                    Choosing a thin client device vs. a thick client device is about management capabilities, nothing else really.

                                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                    • nadnerBN
                                      nadnerB
                                      last edited by

                                      Here I was thinking about using a $Pi for something around home...

                                      Can any of them use "last power state" to turn back on after power failure?

                                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • 1
                                        1337 @scottalanmiller
                                        last edited by 1337


                                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                        • S
                                          StorageNinja Vendor
                                          last edited by

                                          @scottalanmiller said in Making a Raspberry Pi 4 or Similar SBC Desktop:

                                          RP4 with 4GB of RAM

                                          The problem with Pi (and frankly a lot of the low end ARM) is these things have incomplete UEFI bios etc. You currently need to really be working on one of the distro's designed for it (Which is likely fine for your use case). ARM and our engineers are working on this though..

                                          scottalanmillerS 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                          • scottalanmillerS
                                            scottalanmiller @StorageNinja
                                            last edited by

                                            @StorageNinja said in Making a Raspberry Pi 4 or Similar SBC Desktop:

                                            @scottalanmiller said in Making a Raspberry Pi 4 or Similar SBC Desktop:

                                            RP4 with 4GB of RAM

                                            The problem with Pi (and frankly a lot of the low end ARM) is these things have incomplete UEFI bios etc. You currently need to really be working on one of the distro's designed for it (Which is likely fine for your use case). ARM and our engineers are working on this though..

                                            Good point. Definitely an issue. Ubuntu, which is what we use, does make for them at least.

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