Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell
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@Obsolesce said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
You are using PowerShell or other packages to do it. This isn't what the conversation was supposed to be about, somehow you slipped that in there.
Actually it is the only thing it can be about. Since PowerShell can't do it either. In both cases the shell on Linux has to request that a shell on Windows do something on its behalf. You kept saying that PS on Linux had advantages when calling PS on Windows to do things for it. That seemed completely crazy since ALL functionality is determined by PS on Windows. Hence why I kept asking for clarification.
So back to the beginning...
Since we've now established for everyone that PS on Linux has no advantages whatsoever.... why do you feel it is totally impossible that people want it on Linux to manage Linux rather than solely for managing Windows when you've not clarified that you understand what we all thought was assumed... that the choice of shells on X doesn't affect ability to control Y.
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@Obsolesce said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
But still, I thought I was clear in that there was Zero powershell involved when referring to using Bash instead. I think you switched things up or mixed things around just to screw with me.
You kept answering a question that could only make sense the one way. I'm not sure why you thought that the status of PS on Windows would be changed just because we want to use Bash on Linux.
The question keeps being... why do you feel PS on Linux has a purpose? It seems now that you've established that it has no purpose under any conditions (on Linux.) Which I don't agree with, I think it's poor but people want it because they want to use it to manage Linux.
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@Obsolesce said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
Nobody puts PowerShell on Linux to manage only Linux. It's put there to automate MS/Windows management or to automate MS/Windows and Linux management together more efficiently from the same tool.
You kicked off with this statement. But this makes no sense given your understanding now that whatever is on Linux is just calling whatever is on Windows. Do you see how this led us into a discussion specifically about Bash on Linux controlling PS on Windows? That's the only logical place to go when this statement is where you started.
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@scottalanmiller said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
The idea that PS is on Linux to manage Windows makes no sense to me, why would anyone do that?
And now you see why I stated this. Since both Bash and PS on Linux equally call PS on Windows, using PS on Linux for this purpose doesn't make sense on its own.
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@scottalanmiller said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
@Obsolesce said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
But still, I thought I was clear in that there was Zero powershell involved when referring to using Bash instead. I think you switched things up or mixed things around just to screw with me.
You kept answering a question that could only make sense the one way. I'm not sure why you thought that the status of PS on Windows would be changed just because we want to use Bash on Linux.
The question keeps being... why do you feel PS on Linux has a purpose? It seems now that you've established that it has no purpose under any conditions (on Linux.) Which I don't agree with, I think it's poor but people want it because they want to use it to manage Linux.
Would you rather spend money on a Windows server license to run PowerShell automation, or would you rather run PowerShell automation from a Linux server for free?
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@Obsolesce said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
Would you rather spend money on a Windows server license to run PowerShell automation, or would you rather run PowerShell automation from a Linux server for free?
And we are back again. Why do you feel that this relates to the conversation? We are back to the same confusion. We've established that Bash and PowerShell both work from Linux to automate PS on Windows.
So do you see how there is no possible answer to your question that won't cause confusion since it is either a worthless question, or implies that, again, you think that PS on Linux does something that you aren't saying and is what I keep asking about?
So let's ask .... why are you asking this question?
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Or to state it in the clearest way I can possibly think of....
When calling PS on Windows from Linux, what do you feel that PS on Linux does that Bash on Linux doesn't do just as well, or better?
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@scottalanmiller said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
@Obsolesce said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
Nobody puts PowerShell on Linux to manage only Linux. It's put there to automate MS/Windows management or to automate MS/Windows and Linux management together more efficiently from the same tool.
You kicked off with this statement. But this makes no sense given your understanding now that whatever is on Linux is just calling whatever is on Windows. Do you see how this led us into a discussion specifically about Bash on Linux controlling PS on Windows? That's the only logical place to go when this statement is where you started.
That was in reference to what you said in the video. You said something along the lines of putting powershell on Linux just to manage Linux. I thought that's silly and responded as such.
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@Obsolesce said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
That was in reference to what you said in the video. You said something along the lines of putting powershell on Linux just to manage Linux. I thought that's silly and responded as such.
Yes, but it's not silly, hence the problem. You are injecting somethings that cause problems.
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You think that using PowerShell to manage Linux is silly. It's not, there are solid reasons for it and it works fine. So making weird, confusing statements as a round about way to try to state that this is silly won't work. It just makes you not make sense. It's fine to not agree with the reasons that people have for wanting this, but acting like it isn't desired doesn't work.
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Given the logic that you are using for point 1, it would also automatically rule out using PowerShell on Linux to manage Windows remotely for the same reason - that it is silly and not as good at it as Bash. But that you rule out one scenario based on that logic, and not the other, means that you must be holding some belief or knowledge about PS' abilities that I can't get you to state and that's what I've been asking for this entire time.
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@scottalanmiller said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
Or to state it in the clearest way I can possibly think of....
When calling PS on Windows from Linux, what do you feel that PS on Linux does that Bash on Linux doesn't do just as well, or better?
You mean running double PowerShell?
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@Obsolesce said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
@scottalanmiller said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
Or to state it in the clearest way I can possibly think of....
When calling PS on Windows from Linux, what do you feel that PS on Linux does that Bash on Linux doesn't do just as well, or better?
You mean running double PowerShell?
When managing a remote system, any remote system, there are always two shells involved minimum. One shell from which you call, and one shell to which you call. There is no way to have fewer as shells are required to present the OS from one OS to the other.
So yes, when is double PowerShell better then Bash + PowerShell?
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And when it comes to wanting PowerShell on Linux, that's something that we at NTG really wanted. So it's not a theoretical case, it's because PS has some features that we want and don't want on Windows. But sadly, right now, PS on Linux isn't as complete as PS on Windows and we have to use Bash on Linux to call PowerShell on Windows to get as close to this as possible. It's still better than PS to PS, and better than using Windows directly, but not even close to as good as fully functional PS on Linux would be and we hope will be someday.
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@scottalanmiller said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
You think that using PowerShell to manage Linux is silly.
That is not what I said at all. I said using PowerShell to solely manage Linux, from Linux with no other purpose is silly. That's what I meant. If I want to only manage Linux, I'll use Bash. If there are other services or software in the mix that would make running PowerShell on Linux worth it, then sure. But that was never mentioned. All you said was there was Linux, and to run PowerShell on Linux with no other purpose or reason for powershell.
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@scottalanmiller said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
@Obsolesce said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
@scottalanmiller said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
Or to state it in the clearest way I can possibly think of....
When calling PS on Windows from Linux, what do you feel that PS on Linux does that Bash on Linux doesn't do just as well, or better?
You mean running double PowerShell?
When managing a remote system, any remote system, there are always two shells involved minimum. One shell from which you call, and one shell to which you call. There is no way to have fewer as shells are required to present the OS from one OS to the other.
So yes, when is double PowerShell better then Bash + PowerShell?
Okay, so finally a use case.
Remote Windows system management. Yes, then it would make sense to have PowerShell on your Linux system for that purpose. But then you are remoting to and managing Windows. That was not what my point was about.
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@Obsolesce said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
Yes, then it would make sense to have PowerShell on your Linux system for that purpose. But then you are remoting to and managing Windows. That was not what my point was about.
We've been around this circle several times already. I've pointed out ad nauseum that it does not make sense in this use case as it does this more poorly than Bash does. We specifically use Bash for this as it is better at it than PowerShell.
I've asked many times now, why you feel it would be better. Because you have to have something that you think that PowerShell does that you aren't stating, and have to be ignoring when I keep saying that I can't find anything that it does better, and many things it doesn't do as well.
So given that it seems completely clear that we've established that remote Windows administration can't be a logical reason for wanting PowerShell on Linux, why do you then skip all of that discussion and act like this is a new use case, or a logical one when we've established so clearly the opposite?
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@scottalanmiller said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
And when it comes to wanting PowerShell on Linux, that's something that we at NTG really wanted. So it's not a theoretical case, it's because PS has some features that we want and don't want on Windows. But sadly, right now, PS on Linux isn't as complete as PS on Windows and we have to use Bash on Linux to call PowerShell on Windows to get as close to this as possible. It's still better than PS to PS, and better than using Windows directly, but not even close to as good as fully functional PS on Linux would be and we hope will be someday.
Why did you want PowerShell on Linux? For better remote Windows management?
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@Obsolesce said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
Why did you want PowerShell on Linux? For better remote Windows management?
Since it doesn't do that, that wouldn't make any sense. We wanted it for app management of apps that use APIs only available in PS, but not for Windows management in any way. Obviously, we want Bash for Windows management, it works better.
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I don't know why someone would want PS for remote Windows management. Specifically because I don't know why, and because you keep implying that there might be a reason, I keep asking what reason you feel that is. I'm positive this is at least the sixth time I've directly asked this one single question.
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@scottalanmiller said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
So yes, when is double PowerShell better then Bash + PowerShell?
Double PowerShell is not better than Bash plus powerShell. That is what I heard you say in the video. That's what prompted my response, then you started injecting bad assumptions.
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@Obsolesce said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
@scottalanmiller said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
So yes, when is double PowerShell better then Bash + PowerShell?
Double PowerShell is not better than Bash plus powerShell. That is what I heard you say in the video. That's what prompted my response, then you started injecting bad assumptions.
What assumption have I injected? I've never wavered in any way that double PS is worse than Bash + PS. I've been 100% rock solid on that.
I'm not aware of any assumptions. I'm asking you to clarify why you've been implying that double PS has an advantage. I've made it clear why, from testing, we found that it didn't. But you seem to believe we've missed something. Absolutely possible. but why not share what that is if you feel you know of something?
