Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019
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@travisdh1 said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@Dashrender said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@travisdh1 said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@Dashrender said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@travisdh1 said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@Dashrender said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@scottalanmiller said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@Nic said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@Dashrender said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@Nic said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
Doesn't matter how much or how little you pay in taxes when a major medical problem will guarantee you go bankrupt in the US. All that money you saved on taxes goes out the window, plus your house, your truck, and your savings.
I know Scott believes in the public healthcare solution - I just have a hard time paying for everyone else's lack of giving a shit about their health that leads to huge health care costs. if we could hold people accountable for their expenses (not counting things like accidents against them) I think that would make me 'feel' better.
I see the value in some public services - law enforcement/roads/national defense, but I still have a hard time seeing public healthcare as a public good.
I suppose if there is proof that public healthcare raises the quality of life of it's citizens more than it costs those citizen, that would go a long way to convincing me.
I understand the reasoning, but in practice US pays more for worse health outcomes overall:
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries/#item-u-s-similar-public-spending-private-sector-spending-triple-comparable-countriesIn practice the savings of getting rid of the bureaucracy and milking by execs is vastly more than the cost from people going to the doctor more.
Exactly. Although his argument, like those of most Americans, is that they don't care how much they pay, they only care that they pay fairly. This is the fundamental reasons why Europeans and Americans argue and NEVER agree on healthcare - they fundamentally want different outcomes.
Europeans want everyone to be healthy and to pay as little as possible. Americans want to pay their fair share, regardless of if it is more than necessary or how many people don't get healthcare because of it.
So Europeans say "we pay less and get more" and Americans go "you idiots, that isn't fair!"
That's because we don't believe it. I only hear about ridiculous tax rates in Europe in the 60%+ range.
I said above that my tax rate on actual income is around 17% (state/fed/fica). I add the cost of my insurance on that (which I also have to add to my income as well) and it brings it up to 21.4% I can't get anywhere near your 52% number... I must be doing something wrong. Again, I'm using my whole income, not the post allowed deduction income.
Are you adding in the full 15% for the Social Security tax? Don't forget local sales tax, property tax, and government fees. It all adds up. In a low sales tax county in Ohio, I figured my total actual taxes paid was around 57% on ~$38,000 back in 2016 when I sat down and figured it all out.
If you're going to add 15% for FICA - then you'd have to up your income by the whole amount the company is paying as well - that would be a company expense, not an expense to you personally, so I don't add it - I stop at the 7.5% FICA that the employee is responsible for. Though that would still only add at best another 1% to my total.
Then I wish I knew how you got your overall tax rate that low. Seems exceptionally low to me.
OK - I found my error - I'm up to 33.8% now - still no where near 50% This does not include thing like sales tax or housing tax, etc.
Yeah, that's more what I'd expect. Most places in the US don't hit the 50% range until you get everything added in.
If you want to see how bad it can get, ask @scottalanmiller's dad about his situation in NewYork.
Yeah, how "great" it is in the US is an illusion.
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If you want to compare taxes you should look at tax revenue as % of GDP. That's how you can compare taxes between countries. You can't just look at any one thing like income taxes.
So look at the OECD data. https://data.oecd.org/tax/tax-revenue.htm
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@Obsolesce said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@travisdh1 said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@Dashrender said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@travisdh1 said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@Dashrender said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@travisdh1 said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@Dashrender said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@scottalanmiller said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@Nic said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@Dashrender said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@Nic said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
Doesn't matter how much or how little you pay in taxes when a major medical problem will guarantee you go bankrupt in the US. All that money you saved on taxes goes out the window, plus your house, your truck, and your savings.
I know Scott believes in the public healthcare solution - I just have a hard time paying for everyone else's lack of giving a shit about their health that leads to huge health care costs. if we could hold people accountable for their expenses (not counting things like accidents against them) I think that would make me 'feel' better.
I see the value in some public services - law enforcement/roads/national defense, but I still have a hard time seeing public healthcare as a public good.
I suppose if there is proof that public healthcare raises the quality of life of it's citizens more than it costs those citizen, that would go a long way to convincing me.
I understand the reasoning, but in practice US pays more for worse health outcomes overall:
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries/#item-u-s-similar-public-spending-private-sector-spending-triple-comparable-countriesIn practice the savings of getting rid of the bureaucracy and milking by execs is vastly more than the cost from people going to the doctor more.
Exactly. Although his argument, like those of most Americans, is that they don't care how much they pay, they only care that they pay fairly. This is the fundamental reasons why Europeans and Americans argue and NEVER agree on healthcare - they fundamentally want different outcomes.
Europeans want everyone to be healthy and to pay as little as possible. Americans want to pay their fair share, regardless of if it is more than necessary or how many people don't get healthcare because of it.
So Europeans say "we pay less and get more" and Americans go "you idiots, that isn't fair!"
That's because we don't believe it. I only hear about ridiculous tax rates in Europe in the 60%+ range.
I said above that my tax rate on actual income is around 17% (state/fed/fica). I add the cost of my insurance on that (which I also have to add to my income as well) and it brings it up to 21.4% I can't get anywhere near your 52% number... I must be doing something wrong. Again, I'm using my whole income, not the post allowed deduction income.
Are you adding in the full 15% for the Social Security tax? Don't forget local sales tax, property tax, and government fees. It all adds up. In a low sales tax county in Ohio, I figured my total actual taxes paid was around 57% on ~$38,000 back in 2016 when I sat down and figured it all out.
If you're going to add 15% for FICA - then you'd have to up your income by the whole amount the company is paying as well - that would be a company expense, not an expense to you personally, so I don't add it - I stop at the 7.5% FICA that the employee is responsible for. Though that would still only add at best another 1% to my total.
Then I wish I knew how you got your overall tax rate that low. Seems exceptionally low to me.
OK - I found my error - I'm up to 33.8% now - still no where near 50% This does not include thing like sales tax or housing tax, etc.
Yeah, that's more what I'd expect. Most places in the US don't hit the 50% range until you get everything added in.
If you want to see how bad it can get, ask @scottalanmiller's dad about his situation in NewYork.
Yeah, how "great" it is in the US is an illusion.
I have no illusions - we are taxed everywhere - though i consider the tax on buying stuff to be insidious - though I know many of you completely disagree with me. baking the tax in prevents the public from seeing how much they are actually paying - and potentially getting upset enough to become involved in the situation to make a change.
I'd be all for a dual price stick everywhere - showing the non tax and the post tax prices. Hell grocery stores now do that for per ounce pricing on a lot of items, no reason they couldn't have the large number be the post tax, and the small number being the pre-tax.
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@Pete-S said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
If you want to compare taxes you should look at tax revenue as % of GDP.
That really doesn't work. For example, the US requires you to pay (e.g. taxes you) for healthcare. So does France. But France counts it as tax revenue, and the US does not. So unless you have some auditor determining how much people (or companies) have to pay, even at the GDP level it is all smoke and mirrors.
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@Dashrender said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
though I know many of you completely disagree with me. baking the tax in prevents the public from seeing how much they are actually paying - and potentially getting upset enough to become involved in the situation to make a change.
That's not true. That happens just as much now. And in both cases, it only fools people who want to be fooled. But one situation makes pricing simple and fair, one makes it confusing and harder to ensure equality.
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@travisdh1 said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
Yeah, that's more what I'd expect. Most places in the US don't hit the 50% range until you get everything added in.
If you want to see how bad it can get, ask @scottalanmiller's dad about his situation in NewYork.Mine was worse in Texas because of the healthcare tax being so much higher.
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@Dashrender said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
If you're going to add 15% for FICA - then you'd have to up your income by the whole amount the company is paying as we
Yeah, you should only include the portion that you pay.
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Tax is included in all prices everywhere here. You Literally never have to wonder what something will cost after taxes.
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@scottalanmiller said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@Dashrender said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
If you're going to add 15% for FICA - then you'd have to up your income by the whole amount the company is paying as we
Yeah, you should only include the portion that you pay.
OK - to that end, should we only include the part of healthcare that we pay?
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@Obsolesce said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
Tax is included in all prices everywhere here. You Literally never have to wonder what something will cost after taxes.
I know, it's wonderful.
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@Dashrender said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@scottalanmiller said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@Dashrender said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
If you're going to add 15% for FICA - then you'd have to up your income by the whole amount the company is paying as we
Yeah, you should only include the portion that you pay.
OK - to that end, should we only include the part of healthcare that we pay?
Absolutely. But that's totally irrelevant as we don't get pricing of any sort, and taxes aren't really a factor. Just getting pricing of healthcare in any fashion is 99% of the goal.
it's like saying "well if we pay taxes on Mars, we should have them marked in blue to make it easier." Well sure, but we aren't on Mars yet.
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If other universal/single payer systems don't have crazy high deductibles, that needs to be considered, too. If I actually use my health insurance here, I have a $5000 deductible right off the bat, even then I'll still end up paying more out of pocket, all of that needs to be added to the "tax" amount we pay.
Somebody diagnosed with cancer in the US could easily be taxed 500% of their income if we're considering this.
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@bnrstnr said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
If other universal/single payer systems don't have crazy high deductibles, that needs to be considered, too. If I actually use my health insurance here, I have a $5000 deductible right off the bat, even then I'll still end up paying more out of pocket, all of that needs to be added to the "tax" amount we pay.
Somebody diagnosed with cancer in the US could easily be taxed 500% of their income if we're considering this.
I'm lost - how are you paying more than the deductible?I too have a $5500 deductible - but once I reach it - all 'covered' items are covered at 100%, until then, it's basically like I don't have insurance - except that I have to accept the agreed upon insurance pricing - which is often higher than the cash pricing - until I reach the deductible, though that said - the rate is pretty damned low compared to most other plans - I'm not sure if an actual catastrophic plan would be less expensive - current plan cost my employer and I a total of $6100/yr for my coverage.
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@Dashrender said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@bnrstnr said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
If other universal/single payer systems don't have crazy high deductibles, that needs to be considered, too. If I actually use my health insurance here, I have a $5000 deductible right off the bat, even then I'll still end up paying more out of pocket, all of that needs to be added to the "tax" amount we pay.
Somebody diagnosed with cancer in the US could easily be taxed 500% of their income if we're considering this.
I'm lost - how are you paying more than the deductible?I too have a $5500 deductible - but once I reach it - all 'covered' items are covered at 100%, until then, it's basically like I don't have insurance - except that I have to accept the agreed upon insurance pricing - which is often higher than the cash pricing - until I reach the deductible, though that said - the rate is pretty damned low compared to most other plans - I'm not sure if an actual catastrophic plan would be less expensive - current plan cost my employer and I a total of $6100/yr for my coverage.
For my family of 4 it's $17,140/year, I pay 30% of it.
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@bnrstnr said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@Dashrender said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@bnrstnr said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
If other universal/single payer systems don't have crazy high deductibles, that needs to be considered, too. If I actually use my health insurance here, I have a $5000 deductible right off the bat, even then I'll still end up paying more out of pocket, all of that needs to be added to the "tax" amount we pay.
Somebody diagnosed with cancer in the US could easily be taxed 500% of their income if we're considering this.
I'm lost - how are you paying more than the deductible?I too have a $5500 deductible - but once I reach it - all 'covered' items are covered at 100%, until then, it's basically like I don't have insurance - except that I have to accept the agreed upon insurance pricing - which is often higher than the cash pricing - until I reach the deductible, though that said - the rate is pretty damned low compared to most other plans - I'm not sure if an actual catastrophic plan would be less expensive - current plan cost my employer and I a total of $6100/yr for my coverage.
For my family of 4 it's $17,140/year, I pay 30% of it.
But what are you paying for after your deductible is covered? you mentioned you'd have to pay more.
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@Dashrender said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@bnrstnr said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@Dashrender said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@bnrstnr said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
If other universal/single payer systems don't have crazy high deductibles, that needs to be considered, too. If I actually use my health insurance here, I have a $5000 deductible right off the bat, even then I'll still end up paying more out of pocket, all of that needs to be added to the "tax" amount we pay.
Somebody diagnosed with cancer in the US could easily be taxed 500% of their income if we're considering this.
I'm lost - how are you paying more than the deductible?I too have a $5500 deductible - but once I reach it - all 'covered' items are covered at 100%, until then, it's basically like I don't have insurance - except that I have to accept the agreed upon insurance pricing - which is often higher than the cash pricing - until I reach the deductible, though that said - the rate is pretty damned low compared to most other plans - I'm not sure if an actual catastrophic plan would be less expensive - current plan cost my employer and I a total of $6100/yr for my coverage.
For my family of 4 it's $17,140/year, I pay 30% of it.
But what are you paying for after your deductible is covered? you mentioned you'd have to pay more.
If there happens to be a sneaky out of network doctor at the hospital. Copay, prescriptions... idk, there are always surprises.
One of the options we had at last renewal was a $3k deductible with 20% coinsurance, so that could have totaled $9k max out of pocket... which would have saved me $3 a month lol
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@Dashrender said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@scottalanmiller said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@Carnival-Boy said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
Do people with unhealthy life styles end up having higher health care costs though?
They do from studies that I know. But universal healthcare lowers all of the costs way, way more. So his concern would make him totally passionate about it if cost was actually his concern.
Where is the proof in that - and how is it accomplished? does it remove high paid doctors? does it remove high paid administrators? does it remove wasteful spending in hospitals to keep costs respectable? Where is this savings coming from?
I have wondered the same thing. Those who champion foreign healthcare systems never mention where the costs cuts come from.
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@pmoncho said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@Dashrender said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@scottalanmiller said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@Carnival-Boy said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
Do people with unhealthy life styles end up having higher health care costs though?
They do from studies that I know. But universal healthcare lowers all of the costs way, way more. So his concern would make him totally passionate about it if cost was actually his concern.
Where is the proof in that - and how is it accomplished? does it remove high paid doctors? does it remove high paid administrators? does it remove wasteful spending in hospitals to keep costs respectable? Where is this savings coming from?
I have wondered the same thing. Those who champion foreign healthcare systems never mention where the costs cuts come from.
Just a few quick ones... it probably removes the billions in profits the insurance companies rake in. It probably removes the ridiculously convoluted billing systems that are in place now. It probably negotiates prices better. Those couple things would be massive improvements over the system the US has in place now.
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@bnrstnr said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@pmoncho said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@Dashrender said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@scottalanmiller said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
@Carnival-Boy said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
Do people with unhealthy life styles end up having higher health care costs though?
They do from studies that I know. But universal healthcare lowers all of the costs way, way more. So his concern would make him totally passionate about it if cost was actually his concern.
Where is the proof in that - and how is it accomplished? does it remove high paid doctors? does it remove high paid administrators? does it remove wasteful spending in hospitals to keep costs respectable? Where is this savings coming from?
I have wondered the same thing. Those who champion foreign healthcare systems never mention where the costs cuts come from.
Just a few quick ones... it probably removes the billions in profits the insurance companies rake in. It probably removes the ridiculously convoluted billing systems that are in place now. It probably negotiates prices better. Those couple things would be massive improvements over the system the US has in place now.
Sounds good. The profits are surely the first place to start. Another great place to start is PBM profits. Now we need an employee transition plan over the course of X amount of years and costs associated with that.
Wonder what that looks like?
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@pmoncho said in Top Ten Happiest Places on Earth in 2019:
Now we need an employee transition plan over the course of X amount of years and costs associated with that.
Wonder what that looks like?I just can't envision a scenario where a single payer system is any more complicated and less efficient than a system with thousands of private insurance providers... Maybe I'm looking at it all wrong though, I really don't know.
I'd imagine the first few years are going to hurt during the transition... Obviously we can't just flip a switch and have a single payer
