New PBX - on prem or off?
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@manxam said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
I'm picturing one of these located centrally in the office for 911 usage kept out of the PBX
Edit: Replace "Knit!" with "Emergency"
That's an option.
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@JaredBusch said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@Dashrender said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@DustinB3403 said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
Are you looking to replace all of your endpoint devices with new VoIP ones?
Well - this is where things get challenging. and I'd want another thread. So give me 30 mins to fix a user issue and make a new thread for this question.
@scottalanmiller if you see this before @Dashrender comes back, fork the quoted post to a new thread.
Done
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@scottalanmiller said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@Dashrender said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@FATeknollogee said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@Dashrender said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@FATeknollogee said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
You've said nothing regarding your on-prem vm capacity/capability?
Also, how is your LAN equipment - good, new, old, POE switches etc?What baring does that have on my question though? How would that affect Onsite or Hosted PBX?
Obviously, if you don't have the ability or capability to "create" vm's...that would kill the on-prem option!
I know I'm being pedantic, but again, it's not really relevant to my question. One could assume that if On-Prem is really the best way - I will make the required purchases to make that happen. Having a VM infrastructure isn't a prereq.
Doesn't work that way. That's not a rational assumption and almost never correct. Having an HA VM infrastructure is almost always a pre-req, not just the ability to run VMs, but the ability to run them at HA. PBXs have extremely high uptime requirements.
So, in reality, this might be the most important factor in deciding this, rather than an "ignore it" factor like you are thinking.
Basically it's the first thing we need to know...
If you HAVE an HA infrastructure, then on premises in an option.
If you don't have one already, the cost of one makes cloud the only option.
As I already know JB said - I completely disagree with you.
You might consider your PBX to be super HA requirements - but clearly most SMBs don't because they don't install them that way.. instead, like my current setup, they have a dedicated device that is the PBX that has zero HA.
Are phones important here? sure, Do they rise to the level of requiring HA - probably not, in fact I'd go so far as to say absolutely not - see recent history for explanation.
And since you're talking about HA - Are you saying you have your PBXs in your hosted solutions all setup as HA? Are the fault tolerate as well? or just fast to get going on another node?
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@Dashrender said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
You might consider your PBX to be super HA requirements - but clearly most SMBs don't because they don't install them that way..
As you know, what SMBs "consider" is irrelevant. Dogs like to eat chocolate. Doesn't make giving it to them smart.
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@Dashrender said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
Are phones important here? sure, Do they rise to the level of requiring HA - probably not, in fact I'd go so far as to say absolutely not - see recent history for explanation.
You don't feel that 911 service in three doctors' offices is important?
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@scottalanmiller said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@JaredBusch said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@scottalanmiller said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
PBXs have extremely high uptime requirements.
I will say a lot of businesses claim that they need HA or near HA PBX funcitonality.
But once rational thought and actual math is done, it is rarely actually needed.
If his 911 went another path, I'd agree. But his 911 from three sites flows through this one PBX. PBX goes down, 911 goes down.
Well - they would, that would be the plan... But currently that's not the case. The case today is that each PBX has it's own POTS line for 911.
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@scottalanmiller said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@Dashrender said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
You might consider your PBX to be super HA requirements - but clearly most SMBs don't because they don't install them that way..
As you know, what SMBs "consider" is irrelevant. Dogs like to eat chocolate. Doesn't make giving it to them smart.
I'm going to have to steal that dogs eating choc line, ROFL!!
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@Dashrender said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
And since you're talking about HA - Are you saying you have your PBXs in your hosted solutions all setup as HA? Are the fault tolerate as well? or just fast to get going on another node?
Are they HA as measured in uptime? Yes.
Are they HA in that we can get them back online insanely fast? Yes.
Do we generally run our 911 through them? No.
You do, so you are just using unrelated examples to try to ignore the real issue we are discussing.
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@JaredBusch said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@scottalanmiller said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@JaredBusch said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@scottalanmiller said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
PBXs have extremely high uptime requirements.
I will say a lot of businesses claim that they need HA or near HA PBX funcitonality.
But once rational thought and actual math is done, it is rarely actually needed.
If his 911 went another path, I'd agree. But his 911 from three sites flows through this one PBX. PBX goes down, 911 goes down.
This is no different than any historical on site PBX. If the phones go down, so does 911.
Policy should be to use cell phone in that case. Much better option today than before cell phones.911 is not a special thing. Phones have always gone out. Phone systems have gone out. Providers have gone out.
Edit to add:
In fact, I know of no municipality that requires 911 be available even if the phone service is down.That doens't mean a business can ignore it. There are codes that require it to be normally available, and as long as it is, and a known plan for a service outage is in place, I know of no other requirements.
Correct - this is our plan today. If the phone system is down, grab the nearest cell phone and call 911.
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@Dashrender said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@scottalanmiller said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@JaredBusch said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@scottalanmiller said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
PBXs have extremely high uptime requirements.
I will say a lot of businesses claim that they need HA or near HA PBX funcitonality.
But once rational thought and actual math is done, it is rarely actually needed.
If his 911 went another path, I'd agree. But his 911 from three sites flows through this one PBX. PBX goes down, 911 goes down.
Well - they would, that would be the plan... But currently that's not the case. The case today is that each PBX has it's own POTS line for 911.
I know, and so you have a strong form of redundancy both in lines and in equipment, enough to protect you in a law suit.
If you remove all that and just ignore it, you could be personally liable for a 911 problem.
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@Dashrender said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@JaredBusch said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@scottalanmiller said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@JaredBusch said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@scottalanmiller said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
PBXs have extremely high uptime requirements.
I will say a lot of businesses claim that they need HA or near HA PBX funcitonality.
But once rational thought and actual math is done, it is rarely actually needed.
If his 911 went another path, I'd agree. But his 911 from three sites flows through this one PBX. PBX goes down, 911 goes down.
This is no different than any historical on site PBX. If the phones go down, so does 911.
Policy should be to use cell phone in that case. Much better option today than before cell phones.911 is not a special thing. Phones have always gone out. Phone systems have gone out. Providers have gone out.
Edit to add:
In fact, I know of no municipality that requires 911 be available even if the phone service is down.That doens't mean a business can ignore it. There are codes that require it to be normally available, and as long as it is, and a known plan for a service outage is in place, I know of no other requirements.
Correct - this is our plan today. If the phone system is down, grab the nearest cell phone and call 911.
yes, phone CAN go down. But there is "trying to keep them up" and "not bothering to keep them up" that are big factors. And it is a doctors' office, not a normal SMB.
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@JaredBusch said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@Dashrender said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
The POTS line currently act as fax lines and 911.
There is no need to keep this for 911. You can, but there is no requirement to do so.
As for faxing...... Well you are medical and have abnormal faxing needs.
Assuming that you keep this for faxing and don't mix it with the PBX, there is nothing else to do. The line will go straight from the demarc to the fax machines.
If you want to add it in for 911, then you are adding complexity. You will now need an FXO device to convert it to SIP to connect to the PBX. Obviously if this is a hosted service, you are looping back and forth and it will still fail if the internet is down, PBX is down, etc.
My plan/desire (but can't have emotions here - right?) is to have everything on SIP. I'll need FXO? to convert the SIP lines to analog for the fax machines.
I would like to kill all POTS. -
@scottalanmiller said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@Dashrender said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
And since you're talking about HA - Are you saying you have your PBXs in your hosted solutions all setup as HA? Are the fault tolerate as well? or just fast to get going on another node?
Are they HA as measured in uptime? Yes.
Are they HA in that we can get them back online insanely fast? Yes.
Do we generally run our 911 through them? No.
You do, so you are just using unrelated examples to try to ignore the real issue we are discussing.
Where are you running 911 then?
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@scottalanmiller said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@Dashrender said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@scottalanmiller said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@JaredBusch said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@scottalanmiller said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
PBXs have extremely high uptime requirements.
I will say a lot of businesses claim that they need HA or near HA PBX funcitonality.
But once rational thought and actual math is done, it is rarely actually needed.
If his 911 went another path, I'd agree. But his 911 from three sites flows through this one PBX. PBX goes down, 911 goes down.
Well - they would, that would be the plan... But currently that's not the case. The case today is that each PBX has it's own POTS line for 911.
I know, and so you have a strong form of redundancy both in lines and in equipment, enough to protect you in a law suit.
If you remove all that and just ignore it, you could be personally liable for a 911 problem.
Sure, my example says I have multiple POTS in 2 of the three buildings, but I'm not sure 911 is setup to jump to the next if the first fails - so assuming it's not, where is the redundancy?
If a PBX dies, that whole building is 911-less - unless they use a cellphone. -
@scottalanmiller said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@Dashrender said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@JaredBusch said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@scottalanmiller said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@JaredBusch said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@scottalanmiller said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
PBXs have extremely high uptime requirements.
I will say a lot of businesses claim that they need HA or near HA PBX funcitonality.
But once rational thought and actual math is done, it is rarely actually needed.
If his 911 went another path, I'd agree. But his 911 from three sites flows through this one PBX. PBX goes down, 911 goes down.
This is no different than any historical on site PBX. If the phones go down, so does 911.
Policy should be to use cell phone in that case. Much better option today than before cell phones.911 is not a special thing. Phones have always gone out. Phone systems have gone out. Providers have gone out.
Edit to add:
In fact, I know of no municipality that requires 911 be available even if the phone service is down.That doens't mean a business can ignore it. There are codes that require it to be normally available, and as long as it is, and a known plan for a service outage is in place, I know of no other requirements.
Correct - this is our plan today. If the phone system is down, grab the nearest cell phone and call 911.
yes, phone CAN go down. But there is "trying to keep them up" and "not bothering to keep them up" that are big factors. And it is a doctors' office, not a normal SMB.
So what is your proposal in this case?
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@Dashrender said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@JaredBusch said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@Dashrender said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
The POTS line currently act as fax lines and 911.
There is no need to keep this for 911. You can, but there is no requirement to do so.
As for faxing...... Well you are medical and have abnormal faxing needs.
Assuming that you keep this for faxing and don't mix it with the PBX, there is nothing else to do. The line will go straight from the demarc to the fax machines.
If you want to add it in for 911, then you are adding complexity. You will now need an FXO device to convert it to SIP to connect to the PBX. Obviously if this is a hosted service, you are looping back and forth and it will still fail if the internet is down, PBX is down, etc.
My plan/desire (but can't have emotions here - right?) is to have everything on SIP. I'll need FXO? to convert the SIP lines to analog for the fax machines.
I would like to kill all POTS.If you want legacy fax devices, yes, you will need some sort of gateway device.
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@Dashrender said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@scottalanmiller said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@Dashrender said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
And since you're talking about HA - Are you saying you have your PBXs in your hosted solutions all setup as HA? Are the fault tolerate as well? or just fast to get going on another node?
Are they HA as measured in uptime? Yes.
Are they HA in that we can get them back online insanely fast? Yes.
Do we generally run our 911 through them? No.
You do, so you are just using unrelated examples to try to ignore the real issue we are discussing.
Where are you running 911 then?
Most places keep a local line for fax and 911. Not that I like that solution, but it is a simple fix that many places want. A single line for a single purpose is pretty cheap and solves a stupid legal issue really simply.
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@Dashrender said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@scottalanmiller said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@Dashrender said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@scottalanmiller said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@JaredBusch said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@scottalanmiller said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
PBXs have extremely high uptime requirements.
I will say a lot of businesses claim that they need HA or near HA PBX funcitonality.
But once rational thought and actual math is done, it is rarely actually needed.
If his 911 went another path, I'd agree. But his 911 from three sites flows through this one PBX. PBX goes down, 911 goes down.
Well - they would, that would be the plan... But currently that's not the case. The case today is that each PBX has it's own POTS line for 911.
I know, and so you have a strong form of redundancy both in lines and in equipment, enough to protect you in a law suit.
If you remove all that and just ignore it, you could be personally liable for a 911 problem.
Sure, my example says I have multiple POTS in 2 of the three buildings, but I'm not sure 911 is setup to jump to the next if the first fails - so assuming it's not, where is the redundancy?
If a PBX dies, that whole building is 911-less - unless they use a cellphone.If you have POTS, you have no requirement for redundancy. The government has always allowed the risk of POTS to fall to the carrier, not the end users.
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For your fax need, e-Fax is not an option?
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@Dashrender said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@scottalanmiller said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@Dashrender said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@JaredBusch said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@scottalanmiller said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@JaredBusch said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
@scottalanmiller said in New PBX - on prem or off?:
PBXs have extremely high uptime requirements.
I will say a lot of businesses claim that they need HA or near HA PBX funcitonality.
But once rational thought and actual math is done, it is rarely actually needed.
If his 911 went another path, I'd agree. But his 911 from three sites flows through this one PBX. PBX goes down, 911 goes down.
This is no different than any historical on site PBX. If the phones go down, so does 911.
Policy should be to use cell phone in that case. Much better option today than before cell phones.911 is not a special thing. Phones have always gone out. Phone systems have gone out. Providers have gone out.
Edit to add:
In fact, I know of no municipality that requires 911 be available even if the phone service is down.That doens't mean a business can ignore it. There are codes that require it to be normally available, and as long as it is, and a known plan for a service outage is in place, I know of no other requirements.
Correct - this is our plan today. If the phone system is down, grab the nearest cell phone and call 911.
yes, phone CAN go down. But there is "trying to keep them up" and "not bothering to keep them up" that are big factors. And it is a doctors' office, not a normal SMB.
So what is your proposal in this case?
Do something reasonable. That's all. Ask yourself, if you were a judge looking at what you had done or were a customer and found out why 911 could not be called in an emergency, is what you did reasonable?
If you have an HA system, that's more than reasonable, you looked at the risk and attempted to address it. Did you go to cloud and have backups and get near-HA that way? Then great, you looked into it and addressed it. Did you stick to a POTS line? Did you do some sort of failover? Did you get direct SIP to one phone for 911? All reasonable ways to give you super high 911 availability.
