With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse
-
@pmoncho said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
To me, being in SMB, $850 for 6 years is reasonable. Many of these same clients have no issue paying for Sonicwalls, Fortinet and Watchguard UTM's either and we have had many discussions on the cost of those.
So the question is, because no amount of money is reasonable on its own, what features justify the $850? That a client has no problem paying for other things that they should not in no way justifies other spends. Most of us would consider SonicWall or Fortinet to be normally very bad decisions and perfect examples of how SMBs are easily fooled into wasting money, and we would agree that ESXi should be lumped in with them. But lumped in that they are all generally quite bad decisions.
This is like the budget problem - talking about the money someone can spend rather than what they should spend. As IT pros, we are only concerned with the "should", salespeople are only concerned with the "can".
-
@DustinB3403 said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
@pmoncho said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
Based on my past findings, if you purchased an Essentials license (this is all I have ever purchased) you do not lose any functions after support expiration. vCenter even keeps working to my knowledge. You no long have software updates and if you want to re-up they will charge a re-up fee along with support fee.
So this part here seems insane, meaning I can't fix security vulnerabilities or bugs ever.
Only insane part is someone spending money in the first place to create that risk. Nothing crazy or even abnormal about it from the vendor side.
-
@DustinB3403 said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
The price isn't unrealistic in any sense that I can come too, but I'm asking to have the conversation. Which, failing to remain supported, creates some major security concerns.
I'll keep asking this point... based on what value is the price unrealistic?
How is it $850 better than its competition?
-
@DustinB3403 said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
@pmoncho removing features may not be an option that can be considered depending on how ESXi is used. So there really is no good answer here. You're forced to pay continuously.
Essentially extorted to pay for functionality and security.
No extortion at all. Absolutely no one has to buy it. Just like a SonicWall going out of support. The desire to be stuck paying for things is something decided up front by the customer, not the vendor.
-
@scottalanmiller said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
@DustinB3403 said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
The price isn't unrealistic in any sense that I can come too, but I'm asking to have the conversation. Which, failing to remain supported, creates some major security concerns.
I'll keep asking this point... based on what value is the price unrealistic?
How is it $850 better than its competition?
Price for a platform is dependant on what you get for that price. If I get support and updates for a year for $850 I think that could be well spent money.
But it adds a lot of risk that if I refuse to pay for maintenance that I'm dropped from ever fixing a bug or security vulnerability.
-
This conversation needs to be about, what do I get for spending money, and does it add risks or complications. Obviously it does both, thus spending the money can easily be a horrible idea.
-
@pmoncho said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
@DustinB3403 said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
@pmoncho said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
I believe that is why software updates is only $60 per year. That is dirt cheap considering it is ESXi.
Dirt cheap would be $0/year forever like with XCP-ng and KVM.
True dat!
But VMWare isn't opensource and we knew that before the purchase.Right. No one should be surprised that there is continuous cost and no option to stop. There's zero excuse for someone buying ESXi and then being surprised. That requires having done no research into ESXi and/or having assumed that it is crazy and nothing like normal paid software.
-
@pmoncho said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
@DustinB3403 said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
@pmoncho said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
@DustinB3403 said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
@pmoncho said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
I believe that is why software updates is only $60 per year. That is dirt cheap considering it is ESXi.
Dirt cheap would be $0/year forever like with XCP-ng and KVM.
True dat!
But VMWare isn't opensource and we knew that before the purchase.Hyper-V isn't open source, but has updates for free, forever. Open source isn't really a factor there.
Actually, each version of Hyper-V will go EOL and not have security updates forever. So there will come a time you need to upgrade and that will require a current license.
It all comes down to pay to play or leave. Sucks but it is reality.
It's free there too. No pay to play. Completely free, forever.
-
@pmoncho said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
Not true in even the slightest. It does allow you to upgrade. No mention in this thread (as far as I have seen, might have missed it) you understood that you would paying up at EOL without support contract.
What do you mean? Right now, no version of Hyper-V has ever not been free or is hinted to ever not be free. Could it stop being free? Sure, in theory. but a decade of Hyper-V and they've stuck to their "always free" plan.
-
@Dashrender said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
@pmoncho said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
licensee can pay per hour for support if needed.
Looks like I was concerned for a day or two over nothing.
Of course you can pay. That's what Essentials gets you, the right to buy stuff.
-
@DustinB3403 said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
@scottalanmiller said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
@DustinB3403 said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
The price isn't unrealistic in any sense that I can come too, but I'm asking to have the conversation. Which, failing to remain supported, creates some major security concerns.
I'll keep asking this point... based on what value is the price unrealistic?
How is it $850 better than its competition?
Price for a platform is dependant on what you get for that price. If I get support and updates for a year for $850 I think that could be well spent money.
But it adds a lot of risk that if I refuse to pay for maintenance that I'm dropped from ever fixing a bug or security vulnerability.
Right, but you get nothing. No support and the bug fixes are free with other platforms, so not worth a penny here. The right to pay for support is already free in all other products, too.
-
@Dashrender said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
ESXi Essentials is perpetual
Perpetual... without updates!!!
So not perpetual in the way IT people need to think about it.
-
@scottalanmiller said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
@pmoncho said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
Not true in even the slightest. It does allow you to upgrade. No mention in this thread (as far as I have seen, might have missed it) you understood that you would paying up at EOL without support contract.
What do you mean? Right now, no version of Hyper-V has ever not been free or is hinted to ever not be free. Could it stop being free? Sure, in theory. but a decade of Hyper-V and they've stuck to their "always free" plan.
At the time of the discussion (which is all worked out now), is that Hyper-V (pick a version) will run till EOL. My point, at the time, was that Hyper-V 2012R2 will NOT have security updates forever and will then need to be upgraded in order to have further security updates. If you want more security updates for 2012R2 after EOL, you can pay MS for that privilege.
That is all I was stating, nothing more.
-
@scottalanmiller said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
@Dashrender said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
@pmoncho said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
licensee can pay per hour for support if needed.
Looks like I was concerned for a day or two over nothing.
Of course you can pay. That's what Essentials gets you, the right to buy stuff.
I was concerned (only because someone else asked the question - because originally I assumed it to be) if the licenses were perpetual - now that I know they are - I'm no longer worried.
Of course I could still pay, that was never in question.
But now I know - If I stop paying I can still completely and legally continue to use the product. I just don't get updates or upgrades. -
@Dashrender said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
I just don't get updates or upgrades.
But that is the thing you should be concerned the most about.
Imagine if when you bought Windows Server X, it only came with updates for a year. You could use it forever, but if you refused to pay for that maintenance agreement you'd be stuck on the version you have.
Imagine how many security flaws you'd have and bugs too.
-
@pmoncho said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
@scottalanmiller said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
@pmoncho said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
Not true in even the slightest. It does allow you to upgrade. No mention in this thread (as far as I have seen, might have missed it) you understood that you would paying up at EOL without support contract.
What do you mean? Right now, no version of Hyper-V has ever not been free or is hinted to ever not be free. Could it stop being free? Sure, in theory. but a decade of Hyper-V and they've stuck to their "always free" plan.
At the time of the discussion (which is all worked out now), is that Hyper-V (pick a version) will run till EOL. My point, at the time, was that Hyper-V 2012R2 will NOT have security updates forever and will then need to be upgraded in order to have further security updates. If you want more security updates for 2012R2 after EOL, you can pay MS for that privilege.
That is all I was stating, nothing more.
I see. I think a key difference though is this, let's see if I can state it clearly...
Hyper-V doesn't have a "pay per version". So Hyper-V 2016 is the update path for Hyper-V 2012 R2. If you start on Hyper-V 2008, you get updates all the way to Hyper-V 2019 and beyond. All free. All forever (where forever means indefinite, there is no guarantee.) So if you refuse to update (for free) but require patches sure, you can pay for that insanity. But why, since your updates are already free.
VMware ESXi requires you to pay for updates. Both updates that we see as patches, as well as updates from version to version. So your updates stop when your license expires, and you can't upgrade. If you stayed on ESXi and didn't upgrade, but wanted bug fixes for an older release, you'd have to pay extra on top of the upgrade path you've already paid for.
So let's eliminate the reasonably "never used" "pay to not upgrade but still be patched" mode as it doesn't apply in the real world to either product (or to any others.) In real world updates, Hyper-V gives you updates indefinitely, VMware only till the end of your paid window. Totally different. The kinds of updates you pay for from ESXi in the normal maintenance package, are free "forever" with Hyper-V.
-
@scottalanmiller said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
@pmoncho said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
@scottalanmiller said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
@pmoncho said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
Not true in even the slightest. It does allow you to upgrade. No mention in this thread (as far as I have seen, might have missed it) you understood that you would paying up at EOL without support contract.
What do you mean? Right now, no version of Hyper-V has ever not been free or is hinted to ever not be free. Could it stop being free? Sure, in theory. but a decade of Hyper-V and they've stuck to their "always free" plan.
At the time of the discussion (which is all worked out now), is that Hyper-V (pick a version) will run till EOL. My point, at the time, was that Hyper-V 2012R2 will NOT have security updates forever and will then need to be upgraded in order to have further security updates. If you want more security updates for 2012R2 after EOL, you can pay MS for that privilege.
That is all I was stating, nothing more.
I see. I think a key difference though is this, let's see if I can state it clearly...
Hyper-V doesn't have a "pay per version". So Hyper-V 2016 is the update path for Hyper-V 2012 R2. If you start on Hyper-V 2008, you get updates all the way to Hyper-V 2019 and beyond. All free. All forever (where forever means indefinite, there is no guarantee.) So if you refuse to update (for free) but require patches sure, you can pay for that insanity. But why, since your updates are already free.
VMware ESXi requires you to pay for updates. Both updates that we see as patches, as well as updates from version to version. So your updates stop when your license expires, and you can't upgrade. If you stayed on ESXi and didn't upgrade, but wanted bug fixes for an older release, you'd have to pay extra on top of the upgrade path you've already paid for.
So let's eliminate the reasonably "never used" "pay to not upgrade but still be patched" mode as it doesn't apply in the real world to either product (or to any others.) In real world updates, Hyper-V gives you updates indefinitely, VMware only till the end of your paid window. Totally different. The kinds of updates you pay for from ESXi in the normal maintenance package, are free "forever" with Hyper-V (and every other hypervisor).
FTFY
-
@Dashrender said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
@scottalanmiller said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
@Dashrender said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
@pmoncho said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
licensee can pay per hour for support if needed.
Looks like I was concerned for a day or two over nothing.
Of course you can pay. That's what Essentials gets you, the right to buy stuff.
I was concerned (only because someone else asked the question - because originally I assumed it to be) if the licenses were perpetual - now that I know they are - I'm no longer worried.
Of course I could still pay, that was never in question.
But now I know - If I stop paying I can still completely and legally continue to use the product. I just don't get updates or upgrades.You can continue to use the product without security patches. To normal IT folks, that's the same as "can't use the product."
HIPAA considers that a dead product, for example. Can't use that in a HIPAA environment, or a PCI one, or any that has customer data as there are legal requirements even without things like HIPAA, in the US. The latter gets more murky, but falls squarely under professional requirements.
Being out of support is actually about the biggest concern you can have with a product like this. Sure, being unlicensed is bad, but might be the lesser of the two problems to face.
-
@DustinB3403 said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
@Dashrender said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
I just don't get updates or upgrades.
But that is the thing you should be concerned the most about.
Imagine if when you bought Windows Server X, it only came with updates for a year. You could use it forever, but if you refused to pay for that maintenance agreement you'd be stuck on the version you have.
Imagine how many security flaws you'd have and bugs too.
I get all that - but that was NOT my concern when I posted my concern near the top of the thread. The fact that I don't get updates was completely expected and understood - but not relevant at the moment. Only if the license itself was legal to continue using was - the perpetual part.
IF you want to talk about the rest - start another thread. - oh wait - the title is what happens if you let it lapse - well now we know.
A) nothing happens to your current installs
b) you don't get future updates -
@DustinB3403 said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
@Dashrender said in With ESXi Licensing what happens if I let it lapse:
I just don't get updates or upgrades.
But that is the thing you should be concerned the most about.
Imagine if when you bought Windows Server X, it only came with updates for a year. You could use it forever, but if you refused to pay for that maintenance agreement you'd be stuck on the version you have.
Imagine how many security flaws you'd have and bugs too.
And then imagine the liability your company would have if anything were to happen. Getting hacked and data stolen wouldn't fall under "accident" or "these things happen", it would fall almost certainly under "reckless endangerment and disregard for ethical responsibilities to protect customer data."
Of course, if the company demands the situation and acknowledges that they are forcing you to do this, the liability is theirs, not yours. So not your problem if they face civil damages charges and other violations. But if they didn't and only pressured you to do it, they've set you up for that liability personally.
