I have to change cloud drive service yet again



  • @guyinpv Is it a problem with the product or a problem with the expectations of the users?



  • @wirestyle22 said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:

    @guyinpv Is it a problem with the product or a problem with the expectations of the users?

    Bahahahahahahaha. Isn't this ALWAYS the case? 😉



  • @aaronstuder idk. my users are pretty good



  • @guyinpv

    How about you build you own, I always loved the simplicity of WebDAV and WINSCP
    Especially since you said 40 GB storage.

    You can create 2 instances on Cloud VPS and enable private networking and backup files there, and let them access via WebDAV.

    Therotically WebDav does support file locking, however you really need to dig deep in that protocol.

    Its more RAW and simple and faster.

    Check clients like CyberDuck for end users as well.



  • @emad-r You can webdav directly to nextcloud



  • If Dropbox ends up working great. Then your boss might have to except paying for the standard or advanced plan.



  • I don't think it's users fault, which is, of course, what I tend to say for the first 2 dozen reports of issues, but after a while that just gets old.
    The users are not doing crazy operations. They just rename files, or do a CTRL-X to cut a file and then go CTRL-V to paste it in another folder. What happens is the "cut" file reappears in its original location even though it appeared to be deleted at first. Sometimes it would be a day or two before a previously cut file suddenly reappears back in the original folder.
    Same thing with file renaming. The original file might magically reappear alongside the renamed one.

    So user error or not, what keeps happening is that we find duplicate files in multiple folders because the cloud (not the user) mysteriously decided to make the file appear in its original location again, creating a duplicate.

    This happens to multiple users from multiple computers and is very inconsistent. Of course every time I try to test these issues, it works perfectly.

    Unfortunately I can't use 3rd party tools like Cyberduck or WinSCP because everybody is used to browsing with the normal Windows Explorer experience. When they go to save or save-as from other programs like Word etc, they use the normal Explorer save dialog box to find the cloud folder to save to.

    NextCloud is relatively good about creating conflic files if two users edit the same file independently, but we've seen cases where people are POSITIVE they made edits to files and saved them, only to find days later the file they edited is reverted to one without the changes. And the changes they made are NOT recorded in the NC revision system. Those changes just aren't found, despite them being 100% sure they edited the file. And since this has happened many many times for multiple users, nobody trusts the system any more.



  • You're not using the correct tool for the job IMHO. This isn't what NC/ODFB/etc is for.



  • @guyinpv said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:

    .

    Unfortunately I can't use 3rd party tools like Cyberduck or WinSCP because everybody is used to browsing with the normal Windows Explorer experience. When they go to save or save-as from other programs like Word etc, they use the normal Explorer save dialog box to find the cloud folder to save to.

    And since this has happened many many times for multiple users, nobody trusts the system any more.

    Cloud functionality with zero training is very difficult to achieve and it sounds like you are losing trust to users.

    I've seen this happen before at various places. It sounds like everyone has more say than IT. Do you ever try putting your foot down and tell management, you either get functionality or you don't? Because it sounds like management themselves is on an IT witch hunt and somehow think that IT is subservient to users.

    Remember IT serves THE BUSINESS!!!! Not the employees, users, managers of HR, finance, etc... You need to recommend course of action for the business without feeling like you're stepping on Susan in accounting.

    If you can understand and practice this simple concept, you will get more respect, more work done, and much less downtime.



  • @guyinpv said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:

    Any other ideas, hopefully low budget options? There is no way I'm paying $140/m for Dropbox Business for 11 employees to have their own accounts. It's not necessary here, all way want is shared access to one master folder and very robust desktop sync.

    Our NextCloud server is $10/m so if we can keep budget low that would be good. Who knows, I'll probably have to switch again in 3 months when they start complaining of whatever new bugs they come across.

    This sounds really ridiculous! In a business environment you are worried about the difference of. $130 a month? I mean how many hours a month do you spend troubleshooting?

    How many hours do you have in this whole fiasco? It seems like alot. $140 a month would save you a ton of money, actually.



  • @irj said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:

    This sounds really ridiculous! In a business environment you are worried about the difference of. $130 a month? I mean how many hours a month do you spend troubleshooting?
    How many hours do you have in this whole fiasco? It seems like alot. $140 a month would save you a ton of money, actually.

    Assuming the $140/m product actually works without bugs. The NextCloud setup was hopefully going to fix all the problems we saw with Box.

    Again, I've gone over additional training with people using the cloud about exactly how to move files around and verify that it happens. But "the cloud put my files back".

    I'd love to command more control over technology and just demand people use it, but that's assuming the product actually functions.
    Unless you're suggesting I tell people they aren't allowed to rename files or use cut/paste within cloud folders?

    And yes the environment here is a bit toxic in terms of people getting a kick out of whining about tech and using that as a jab on me. I'm often backed into a corner being forced to try and explain why some random service we use doesn't have some random feature they think it should have. Like "well how come I can't XYZ huh huh huh!!?!?!.........well because that service doesn't have the feature..... why wouldn't they put that feature in! It's a basic thing, why why WHY!!?!?!..........um, I don't know, ask them."

    I hate being made to explain why other people's software works a certain way or has or doesn't have a certain feature or can or can't do something. As if I work for those people or have any say in how their software runs. I once had to endure a 10 minute lecturing session because the boss didn't like that Adobe has a monthly subscription model for Creative Suite. Chewing me out as if I were literally the CEO of Adobe.
    Come to think of it, I often have to be the whipping boy for every technology we use, every time it gives us any grief. They always act like we have unlimited choices in services and so if this one hiccups, there must be 32 more to choose from that not only have every feature we use, but all the features we want, and is also in the right budget.

    But I don't want to rant! lol

    I really do want a cloud that just works though, handling basic things like reliably syncing files to computers, and can handle file renames and moving files around without creating copies and such.



  • I use NC and love it like everyone else. However for this scenario, Office online and one drive is the best tool for what you are trying to accomplish.

    It's simple, easy to use and requires very minimal training since the company is already likely utilizing office . It functions just like the desktop versions in every way and makes file sharing extremely easy.



  • Doesn't sound like you have a mobile workforce. Maybe just put a small NAS in the office and call it a day. Just sayin'



  • @aaronstuder said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:

    @guyinpv What issues have you had?

    He's got a separate (older) thread detailing that.



  • @emad-r said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:

    @guyinpv

    How about you build you own, I always loved the simplicity of WebDAV and WINSCP
    Especially since you said 40 GB storage.

    You can create 2 instances on Cloud VPS and enable private networking and backup files there, and let them access via WebDAV.

    Therotically WebDav does support file locking, however you really need to dig deep in that protocol.

    Its more RAW and simple and faster.

    Check clients like CyberDuck for end users as well.

    WebDAV is behind all SharePoint folder access via File Explorer. It works really well.

    Why not go with SharePoint online? Check out/in, versioning, reviewer control, and offline capabilities work really well. We've been deploying and managing SharePoint since the 2003 days and any of our clients that adopted it are still using it.

    Most modern document creation and editing apps support it and its features.

    And, it's cheap.

    As I recall, the CEO of DropBox is on the record for the lack of security in the product (read backdoors).



  • @irj

    @irj said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:

    I use NC and love it like everyone else. However for this scenario, Office online and one drive is the best tool for what you are trying to accomplish.

    It's simple, easy to use and requires very minimal training since the company is already likely utilizing office . It functions just like the desktop versions in every way and makes file sharing extremely easy.

    When I tested with OneDrive over a year ago, it wasn't syncing files the way we need. It wasn't letting us sync to desktop any shared folders. I believe it might be able to do this now, I'd have to test again.

    We do have Office365 but we don't have accounts for every user individually. Some of our office computers are shared and so multiple people might be working under the same user.

    I personally have my own O365 business account for my home business and I've found it to work pretty well although I don'y have any shared folders with other people.

    I feel like it's been only a couple months since I scrubbed onedrive off all our computers cause it wasn't working right. Feels wrong to go right back to it again. What a pain.



  • @phlipelder

    @phlipelder said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:

    @emad-r said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:

    @guyinpv

    Why not go with SharePoint online? Check out/in, versioning, reviewer control, and offline capabilities work really well. We've been deploying and managing SharePoint since the 2003 days and any of our clients that adopted it are still using it.

    Most modern document creation and editing apps support it and its features.

    And, it's cheap.

    As I recall, the CEO of DropBox is on the record for the lack of security in the product (read backdoors).

    Our O365 account level doesn't have Sharepoint. Not in the budget apparently.

    Isn't the included OneDrive basically already built on top of SP in some sense?

    Keep in mind the users here want nothing but standard Windows Explorer folders to browse around files. No way they will use an online interface or SCP programs etc.



  • @guyinpv said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:

    @irj

    @irj said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:

    I use NC and love it like everyone else. However for this scenario, Office online and one drive is the best tool for what you are trying to accomplish.

    It's simple, easy to use and requires very minimal training since the company is already likely utilizing office . It functions just like the desktop versions in every way and makes file sharing extremely easy.

    When I tested with OneDrive over a year ago, it wasn't syncing files the way we need. It wasn't letting us sync to desktop any shared folders. I believe it might be able to do this now, I'd have to test again.

    We do have Office365 but we don't have accounts for every user individually. Some of our office computers are shared and so multiple people might be working under the same user.

    I personally have my own O365 business account for my home business and I've found it to work pretty well although I don'y have any shared folders with other people.

    I feel like it's been only a couple months since I scrubbed onedrive off all our computers cause it wasn't working right. Feels wrong to go right back to it again. What a pain.

    One Drive Sharing in itself should be sufficient. If I create a file, I can share with certain users or everyone and they are able to see it under "Shared with Me" directly under their OneDrive.

    If it is shared in OneDrive, then why copy it to a network shared folder? That doesnt really make any sense? I can understand copying it locally of course, but why the need for it to be in a shared folder?

    Btw that is very bad practice to share accounts like that, which I am sure you already know.



  • @guyinpv said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:

    Keep in mind the users here want nothing but standard Windows Explorer folders to browse around files. No way they will use an online interface or SCP programs etc.

    Excuse my language, but "Fucking make them!" Do not give the users the option, because they dont understand tech and the advantages of using an online interface. Why complicate things from an IT and business perspective when they dont have to be complicated.

    You need to do what is best for the business and creating billable IT hour after IT hour is not the best for the business. They are perfectly capable of using an online interface and the amount of training is very minimal. Seriously, these users could be trained in less than one hour. I am sure some these people use Google Drive, OneDrive, or Apple on their personal devices.



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  • The issues with @guyinpv is that he is never doing what is recommended.

    He was told that no sync client will ever do what he wants.

    He was told to use WebDAV.

    He has not done so, to my knowledge.

    So, of course it does not work the way he wants.

    Also, as you can see from his post about DropBox, he has no problem lying and stealing in order to spend less on a service.



  • @guyinpv said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:

    I don't think it's users fault, which is, of course, what I tend to say for the first 2 dozen reports of issues, but after a while that just gets old.
    The users are not doing crazy operations. They just rename files, or do a CTRL-X to cut a file and then go CTRL-V to paste it in another folder. What happens is the "cut" file reappears in its original location even though it appeared to be deleted at first. Sometimes it would be a day or two before a previously cut file suddenly reappears back in the original folder.
    Same thing with file renaming. The original file might magically reappear alongside the renamed one.

    So user error or not, what keeps happening is that we find duplicate files in multiple folders because the cloud (not the user) mysteriously decided to make the file appear in its original location again, creating a duplicate.

    This happens to multiple users from multiple computers and is very inconsistent. Of course every time I try to test these issues, it works perfectly.

    Unfortunately I can't use 3rd party tools like Cyberduck or WinSCP because everybody is used to browsing with the normal Windows Explorer experience. When they go to save or save-as from other programs like Word etc, they use the normal Explorer save dialog box to find the cloud folder to save to.

    NextCloud is relatively good about creating conflic files if two users edit the same file independently, but we've seen cases where people are POSITIVE they made edits to files and saved them, only to find days later the file they edited is reverted to one without the changes. And the changes they made are NOT recorded in the NC revision system. Those changes just aren't found, despite them being 100% sure they edited the file. And since this has happened many many times for multiple users, nobody trusts the system any more.

    These kinds of problems are what scare me about going LANLess!



  • @irj said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:

    Btw that is very bad practice to share accounts like that, which I am sure you already know.

    is it just a bad practice, or is it against the TOS?



  • @irj said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:

    @guyinpv said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:

    Keep in mind the users here want nothing but standard Windows Explorer folders to browse around files. No way they will use an online interface or SCP programs etc.

    Excuse my language, but "Fucking make them!" Do not give the users the option, because they dont understand tech and the advantages of using an online interface. Why complicate things from an IT and business perspective when they dont have to be complicated.

    You need to do what is best for the business and creating billable IT hour after IT hour is not the best for the business. They are perfectly capable of using an online interface and the amount of training is very minimal. Seriously, these users could be trained in less than one hour. I am sure some these people use Google Drive, OneDrive, or Apple on their personal devices.

    The reality is most people don't want to move to those online PITA solutions. A web interface might be 'usable' but it's definitely much more time consuming and difficult compared to browsing SMB shares.

    We had the same problem moving medical staff to EHRs - this takes longer - and by god it did! it takes longer to click all the boxes, move between screens, type in names, etc, compared to using a pen on a piece of paper. Of course the back end services became almost infinitely small (timewise) which is where the pay off mostly comes from. Also the ability for those front line workers to find things faster, etc.

    But moving the workers only happens if you have buy in from the top. If they refuse, then the workers will also refuse.



  • @jaredbusch said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:

    The issues with @guyinpv is that he is never doing what is recommended.

    He was told that no sync client will ever do what he wants.

    He was told to use WebDAV.

    He has not done so, to my knowledge.

    So, of course it does not work the way he wants.

    Also, as you can see from his post about DropBox, he has no problem lying and stealing in order to spend less on a service.

    So far, no sync client is doing what we want.

    WebDAV is not the answer to my questions. Nobody here is going to work all day out of Cyberduck.

    I talked to Dropdox support directly and they are fine with sharing users if that is how your office functions. In other words, "general" computers that multiple people use, they don't belong to any one person, so general accounts can be set up on them. We have generic shipping computers, floating stations, lobby computer, multimedia computer, etc. They aren't used by any one account, so a shared account is perfectly fine with Dropbox.



  • @jaredbusch

    @irj said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:

    @guyinpv said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:

    @irj

    @irj said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:

    I use NC and love it like everyone else. However for this scenario, Office online and one drive is the best tool for what you are trying to accomplish.

    It's simple, easy to use and requires very minimal training since the company is already likely utilizing office . It functions just like the desktop versions in every way and makes file sharing extremely easy.

    When I tested with OneDrive over a year ago, it wasn't syncing files the way we need. It wasn't letting us sync to desktop any shared folders. I believe it might be able to do this now, I'd have to test again.

    We do have Office365 but we don't have accounts for every user individually. Some of our office computers are shared and so multiple people might be working under the same user.

    I personally have my own O365 business account for my home business and I've found it to work pretty well although I don'y have any shared folders with other people.

    I feel like it's been only a couple months since I scrubbed onedrive off all our computers cause it wasn't working right. Feels wrong to go right back to it again. What a pain.

    One Drive Sharing in itself should be sufficient. If I create a file, I can share with certain users or everyone and they are able to see it under "Shared with Me" directly under their OneDrive.

    If it is shared in OneDrive, then why copy it to a network shared folder? That doesnt really make any sense? I can understand copying it locally of course, but why the need for it to be in a shared folder?

    Btw that is very bad practice to share accounts like that, which I am sure you already know.

    To my knowledge (tested about a year ago), OneDrive folders when shared could not be synced to local computers. It would only sync your own folders. This may have changed but local computer sync simply couldn't be done back when I used it.

    I'm not doing a second copy to a local shared folder. I simply want local sync period. Obviously if our share becomes a lot larger than 11GB, it will begin to make more sense to not sync absolutely everything. But the folder isn't growing that fast so I'll wait for that day.



  • @dashrender

    @dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:

    @irj said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:

    Btw that is very bad practice to share accounts like that, which I am sure you already know.

    is it just a bad practice, or is it against the TOS?

    It is not against the TOS. If you have a standard DB account, you can install it on as many devices as you want.
    If you have a DB Business account, which is minimum 3 users I think, then each user should have their own account.

    Dropbox was perfectly fine with me purchasing multiple standard accounts and then installing them on whatever devices make sense. But if we wanted a business plan, they want one account per user. Although when I talked to them about our "generic" multi-user computers, they were still okay with having one account used on multiple general stations.



  • @guyinpv said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:

    So far, no sync client is doing what we want.

    This is 100% correct. No sync client can possibly do what you want.

    WebDAV is not the answer to my questions. Nobody here is going to work all day out of Cyberduck.

    Who said anything about using Cyberduck? WebDAV get's mounted like any other mount point in Windows. Nothing additional needed.



  • @guyinpv said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:

    WebDAV is not the answer to my questions. Nobody here is going to work all day out of Cyberduck.

    What... what are you talking about here? WebDAV connects identically to how a SMB share connects on a Windows machine. You simply mount it as a shared drive or add the WebDAV URL as a quick access point.

    https://www.webdavsystem.com/server/access/windows/



  • @coliver said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:

    @guyinpv said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:

    WebDAV is not the answer to my questions. Nobody here is going to work all day out of Cyberduck.

    What... what are you talking about here? WebDAV connects identically to how a SMB share connects on a Windows machine. You simply mount it as a shared drive or add the WebDAV URL as a quick access point.

    https://www.webdavsystem.com/server/access/windows/

    OK good - I wasn't the only one wondering what Cyberduck was all about 😛