I have to change cloud drive service yet again
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@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
simply searching titles are often useless, because we don't always remember the actual title we give something. etc etc.
If titles (and presumable folder titles) don't let you find something, how does moving files around solve any problems?
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@coliver said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
The sync process scans the end point for files. Those files are copied up to the server. The data point on the server is where the meta data is attached and how it knows to look for changes. Move that file, and there is no connection to the file on the client any longer.... so...
Client A creates myfile.doc
Client A syncs to Server
Server now has a copy of myfile.doc and stores data about it like its version history, ownership, sharing, etc.
Client A moves file to new location. (Deletes the existing copy, makes a new file with the same name in a different spot. A move IS a deletion and recreation to the local filesystem.)
Sync to the server forces one to be deleted and a new one to be created. The server can't see that a file was "moved", that's not visible to it. It sees what really happened, one was deleted and another was created that just happens to have the same name and contents. But it is NOT the same file to the server (and potentially not to the end user.)
Now the server thinks it should delete the one that was there, and create a new one, so it does.
Now the server pushes down the deletion and the new creation to Clients B and C. Everyone is in sync, although now two users dont' know where their file is, all shares are broken, and all history and permissions are broken. The file is there, but things aren't set up like they were thought to be. No big deal.
Now Client B was working on that file at the time that it was moved and they save it. Since the file was deleted and no longer exists, when they save it it creates a new file.
Client B syncs the new file up to the Server. The Server has no idea that this is the same file that was deleted previously because that file doesn't exist, has no data, and this file is brand new.
Now Clients A and C get a copy of this divergent file, in the original location, from the Server.
To the end users it looks like files are reverting. But what really happened is that the user on Client A broke the meta-data because of their "moving" of files and created a break in the database so that the files being worked on by the end users are not associated with the file that was moved.
OK this whole thing makes sense - So you really believe the OP's issue is that people have open files they are editing, and that is the root of the issue here? The OP hasn't mentioned anything about multiple people being in the same file and seeing files 'reappear'... granted he could have left that out.
He has mentioned file locking a dozen or so times though and that would seem to confirm what @scottalanmiller is thinking.
well, my memory of him mentioning file locking was that it didn't exist - not that he was getting "in use" messages because of file locking. But I'm to lazy to read up through the entire thread now.
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@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
One issue with the app only access - what happens when you change apps? i.e. switching from using Adobe Acrobat to PDF Element? Is it now up to the OS to know what files belong to what app? or is there simply a single folderless dumping ground for all files?
All modern OSes already handle that. It's a long ago solved problem.
By all modern, I assume you mean Chrome OS/android and iOS? but not windows?
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@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
One issue with the app only access - what happens when you change apps? i.e. switching from using Adobe Acrobat to PDF Element? Is it now up to the OS to know what files belong to what app? or is there simply a single folderless dumping ground for all files?
All modern OSes already handle that. It's a long ago solved problem.
By all modern, I assume you mean Chrome OS/android and iOS? but not windows?
I'm not following? Windows can manage file types in this fashion as well. Must have missed something.
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@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
simply searching titles are often useless, because we don't always remember the actual title we give something. etc etc.
If titles (and presumable folder titles) don't let you find something, how does moving files around solve any problems?
folders do solve it, because it narrows you from 1000's of files to maybe 100. then you just read through the list.
Again - tags would really solve this much better, because you can often have way more than just one tag, making searching significantly better.
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@coliver said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
One issue with the app only access - what happens when you change apps? i.e. switching from using Adobe Acrobat to PDF Element? Is it now up to the OS to know what files belong to what app? or is there simply a single folderless dumping ground for all files?
All modern OSes already handle that. It's a long ago solved problem.
By all modern, I assume you mean Chrome OS/android and iOS? but not windows?
I'm not following? Windows can manage file types in this fashion as well. Must have missed something.
Windows doesn't handle anything. The files are just where they are. If you launch Adobe reader - it doesn't show you all PDFs on a system, or even search for them all - at min you'd have to choose the root of the drive you think your file is on, then search for your title, etc. some apps even will search inside the files for text. but without the prestep of choosing the root of that drive, if you're in some subfolder, you could easily miss a file.
I assume that iOS stores all PDFs in a single location - heck, it might store ALL files in a single directory. Then when an app is installed, the app registers that it's for PDFs, and iOS allows it to see all PDFs in that folder.
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@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
simply searching titles are often useless, because we don't always remember the actual title we give something. etc etc.
If titles (and presumable folder titles) don't let you find something, how does moving files around solve any problems?
folders do solve it, because it narrows you from 1000's of files to maybe 100. then you just read through the list.
Again - tags would really solve this much better, because you can often have way more than just one tag, making searching significantly better.
you still have the problem of having meaningful tags. where do these come from and who is responsible for maintaining them? most people are lazy and wouldn't use tags to the level of their capability. plus, whats to say that the tag I give a file is what you would use for searching for that file?
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@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@coliver said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
One issue with the app only access - what happens when you change apps? i.e. switching from using Adobe Acrobat to PDF Element? Is it now up to the OS to know what files belong to what app? or is there simply a single folderless dumping ground for all files?
All modern OSes already handle that. It's a long ago solved problem.
By all modern, I assume you mean Chrome OS/android and iOS? but not windows?
I'm not following? Windows can manage file types in this fashion as well. Must have missed something.
Windows doesn't handle anything. The files are just where they are. If you launch Adobe reader - it doesn't show you all PDFs on a system, or even search for them all - at min you'd have to choose the root of the drive you think your file is on, then search for your title, etc. some apps even will search inside the files for text. but without the prestep of choosing the root of that drive, if you're in some subfolder, you could easily miss a file.
I assume that iOS stores all PDFs in a single location - heck, it might store ALL files in a single directory. Then when an app is installed, the app registers that it's for PDFs, and iOS allows it to see all PDFs in that folder.
Ah, I see was curious as to what you meant.
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I feel like this is a 100% human problem, and no matter what we do with the OS, its still human judgment that is the cause of the problems.
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@Donahue said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
simply searching titles are often useless, because we don't always remember the actual title we give something. etc etc.
If titles (and presumable folder titles) don't let you find something, how does moving files around solve any problems?
folders do solve it, because it narrows you from 1000's of files to maybe 100. then you just read through the list.
Again - tags would really solve this much better, because you can often have way more than just one tag, making searching significantly better.
you still have the problem of having meaningful tags. where do these come from and who is responsible for maintaining them? most people are lazy and wouldn't use tags to the level of their capability. plus, whats to say that the tag I give a file is what you would use for searching for that file?
Well - that would be up to the departments. You could pre create dozens of tags, etc... if the system is like ML here- as you type win - it will show you a list of all existing tags that have win in it.
Yes - getting people to use TAGs is the hardest part. Sharepoint for example, so I'm told, can force this on users.
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@Donahue said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
I feel like this is a 100% human problem, and no matter what we do with the OS, its still human judgment that is the cause of the problems.
yep.
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@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Donahue said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
simply searching titles are often useless, because we don't always remember the actual title we give something. etc etc.
If titles (and presumable folder titles) don't let you find something, how does moving files around solve any problems?
folders do solve it, because it narrows you from 1000's of files to maybe 100. then you just read through the list.
Again - tags would really solve this much better, because you can often have way more than just one tag, making searching significantly better.
you still have the problem of having meaningful tags. where do these come from and who is responsible for maintaining them? most people are lazy and wouldn't use tags to the level of their capability. plus, whats to say that the tag I give a file is what you would use for searching for that file?
Well - that would be up to the departments. You could pre create dozens of tags, etc... if the system is like ML here- as you type win - it will show you a list of all existing tags that have win in it.
Yes - getting people to use TAGs is the hardest part. Sharepoint for example, so I'm told, can force this on users.
maybe it could force someone to use A tag, but nothing that can be programmed can force a user to use the correct tag, because it is a matter of intent and actual intelligence. Computers can only be as good as the programmer programming them.
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Now if the OS had the ability for tags to be created automatically based on say the words in a document, then you might start down a better path. But let's say that your data was images. This cannot be done outside of things like neural networks, and even then only to a point.
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@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
One issue with the app only access - what happens when you change apps? i.e. switching from using Adobe Acrobat to PDF Element? Is it now up to the OS to know what files belong to what app? or is there simply a single folderless dumping ground for all files?
All modern OSes already handle that. It's a long ago solved problem.
By all modern, I assume you mean Chrome OS/android and iOS? but not windows?
Windows even does this, and long has. It's not as robust or reliable, but it has it.
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@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
simply searching titles are often useless, because we don't always remember the actual title we give something. etc etc.
If titles (and presumable folder titles) don't let you find something, how does moving files around solve any problems?
folders do solve it, because it narrows you from 1000's of files to maybe 100. then you just read through the list.
Again - tags would really solve this much better, because you can often have way more than just one tag, making searching significantly better.
Only IF you know the folder. And if you move things, then you don't. Can't have it both ways. If you want to move it, folders don't work. If you don't need to move it, you don't need the folders.
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@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@coliver said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
One issue with the app only access - what happens when you change apps? i.e. switching from using Adobe Acrobat to PDF Element? Is it now up to the OS to know what files belong to what app? or is there simply a single folderless dumping ground for all files?
All modern OSes already handle that. It's a long ago solved problem.
By all modern, I assume you mean Chrome OS/android and iOS? but not windows?
I'm not following? Windows can manage file types in this fashion as well. Must have missed something.
Windows doesn't handle anything. The files are just where they are. If you launch Adobe reader - it doesn't show you all PDFs on a system, or even search for them all - at min you'd have to choose the root of the drive you think your file is on, then search for your title, etc. some apps even will search inside the files for text. but without the prestep of choosing the root of that drive, if you're in some subfolder, you could easily miss a file.
That's Adobe's fault for not leveraging the OS. The OS certainly does it.
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@Donahue said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
simply searching titles are often useless, because we don't always remember the actual title we give something. etc etc.
If titles (and presumable folder titles) don't let you find something, how does moving files around solve any problems?
folders do solve it, because it narrows you from 1000's of files to maybe 100. then you just read through the list.
Again - tags would really solve this much better, because you can often have way more than just one tag, making searching significantly better.
you still have the problem of having meaningful tags. where do these come from and who is responsible for maintaining them? most people are lazy and wouldn't use tags to the level of their capability. plus, whats to say that the tag I give a file is what you would use for searching for that file?
You could say the same thing about putting files in folders. So if people are lazy and don't put them in a logical spot, folders make this far worse than just missing tags.
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@Donahue said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
I feel like this is a 100% human problem, and no matter what we do with the OS, its still human judgment that is the cause of the problems.
Right. Humans have to be involved still. Imagine saying you want to retrieve a box in your house but can't remember where you put it, or how it is labeled, or what it looks like.
Even without computers, it's a problem.
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@Donahue said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
Now if the OS had the ability for tags to be created automatically based on say the words in a document, then you might start down a better path. But let's say that your data was images. This cannot be done outside of things like neural networks, and even then only to a point.
Would maybe still know when it was taken, where it was taken, etc.
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@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Donahue said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
Now if the OS had the ability for tags to be created automatically based on say the words in a document, then you might start down a better path. But let's say that your data was images. This cannot be done outside of things like neural networks, and even then only to a point.
Would maybe still know when it was taken, where it was taken, etc.
true.
