SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?
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@dashrender said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@pete-s said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@dashrender said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@pete-s said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@dustinb3403 said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@pete-s except the cost per GB is even more for U.2 drives than it is for the traditional formats.
Depends on how you calculate. One NVMe drive, say 4TB, it will beat the performance of four 1TB SATA SSD drives in RAID0. If you take 4x1TB drives and a raid controller the 4TB NVMe will be cheaper or similar. So per IOPS the NVMe drives are cheaper. And total failure rate is lower because you need fewer drives to accomplish the same thing.
If you on the other side take a 4TB NVMe drive compared to a 4TB SATA SSD you will pay about 25% premium for the NVMe drive. Intel for instance have their DC series of drives that are available both in SATA and NVMe which makes it easier to compare apples to apples.
Except in your RAID example above you totally miss that the OP wants hardware protection. So a RAID card is required regardless (either onboard real RAID 1 for your dual drive setup, or add-in card).
I didn't miss it, I just compared it performance wise. You could do RAID1 with two NVME drives but that would be some something like Intel RST (motherboard) so low cost. If you want a RAID controller that can come close to that, you need something very expensive, and then the 8x1TB SSD in RAID10 to go with it.
Why are you doing SSD RAID 10? just to try to come close performance wise to the NVMe?
They are often cheaper.
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@dave247, @dashrender said two 4TB SATA/SAS SSDs in RAID1, not HDDs.
Exactly. A RAID 1 SSD pair - be it SAS/SATA or NVMe will just crush the current storage system you have in place.
current system = 260/520 IOPs
RAID 1 SSD = 25,000/50,000 IOPs.Single midrange NVME drive, Intel DC P4510 4TB
113,500/625,500 IOPSSame drive as above but SATA version, Intel D3 S4510 2TB
35,500/97,000 IOPShttps://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/solid-state-drives/ssd-nvme-overview-video.html
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BTW: why are we calling hard drives "Winchester drives"?
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@dave247 said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
BTW: why are we calling hard drives "Winchester drives"?
Someone should update this wiki article to be other countries, and @scottalanmiller
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_hard_disk_drives
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Mind than ssd cache is ofter disabled by default with raid controllers. Letting ssd perf drop down a lot!!!
Enterprise grade ssds should have power loss protection so you should be safe re-enabling ssd on board cache. Again @scottalanmiller or @JaredBusch know more about this. -
@jaredbusch said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@dave247 said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
BTW: why are we calling hard drives "Winchester drives"?
Someone should update this wiki article to be other countries, and @scottalanmiller
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_hard_disk_drives
Yeah I've already looked up "Winchester drive". I still don't understand why you guys would refer to modern hard disk drives as Winchester drives. That would be like referring to all gasoline vehicles as Model-T's..
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@dave247 said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@jaredbusch said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@dave247 said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
BTW: why are we calling hard drives "Winchester drives"?
Someone should update this wiki article to be other countries, and @scottalanmiller
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_hard_disk_drives
Yeah I've already looked up "Winchester drive". I still don't understand why you guys would refer to modern hard disk drives as Winchester drives. That would be like referring to all gasoline vehicles as Model-T's..
I don't. Scott does. Because Scott does, a number of other people do also. The term is a correct usage.
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@jaredbusch said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@dave247 said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@jaredbusch said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@dave247 said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
BTW: why are we calling hard drives "Winchester drives"?
Someone should update this wiki article to be other countries, and @scottalanmiller
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_hard_disk_drives
Yeah I've already looked up "Winchester drive". I still don't understand why you guys would refer to modern hard disk drives as Winchester drives. That would be like referring to all gasoline vehicles as Model-T's..
I don't. Scott does. Because Scott does, a number of other people do also. The term is a correct usage.
How is it correct usage?
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@dave247 said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@jaredbusch said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@dave247 said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@jaredbusch said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@dave247 said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
BTW: why are we calling hard drives "Winchester drives"?
Someone should update this wiki article to be other countries, and @scottalanmiller
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_hard_disk_drives
Yeah I've already looked up "Winchester drive". I still don't understand why you guys would refer to modern hard disk drives as Winchester drives. That would be like referring to all gasoline vehicles as Model-T's..
I don't. Scott does. Because Scott does, a number of other people do also. The term is a correct usage.
How is it correct usage?
Just because a once common term has fallen out of common usage, that does not invalidate it as a correct term. This nickname was common, and is no longer so. Doesn't make it wrong. Well, any more wrong than it was to start.
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@jaredbusch said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@dave247 said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@jaredbusch said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@dave247 said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@jaredbusch said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@dave247 said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
BTW: why are we calling hard drives "Winchester drives"?
Someone should update this wiki article to be other countries, and @scottalanmiller
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_hard_disk_drives
Yeah I've already looked up "Winchester drive". I still don't understand why you guys would refer to modern hard disk drives as Winchester drives. That would be like referring to all gasoline vehicles as Model-T's..
I don't. Scott does. Because Scott does, a number of other people do also. The term is a correct usage.
How is it correct usage?
Just because a once common term has fallen out of common usage, that does not invalidate it as a correct term. This nickname was common, and is no longer so. Doesn't make it wrong. Well, any more wrong than it was to start.
So it's a nickname, not a technical term? If that's the case, then I'd say it's more confusing than anything since it's an antiquated nickname. Just call them hard disk drives or spindle drives or something. That seems a lot more clear and it still differentiates it from SSD drives.
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@dave247 said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
I'm planning the build on a new server. I originally intended on putting 8 x "900GB 15K RPM SAS 12Gbps 512e" drives into a RAID 10 config using an H740P adapter, but then I saw that there are quite a few options for SAS SSD. I haven't really learned too much about the differences of putting SSD in RAID and how it compares to HDD in RAID, so I wanted to see if anyone here (Scott) had any input on the matter.
Example: Would it be worth putting, say, 6 x "1.6TB SSD SAS Mix Use 12Gbps 512e" drives into a RAID 10 instead? Is there a better approach with SSD in RAID?
RAID 6 is the way to go. We lost a server after replacing a drive and it's RAID 10 pair decided to drop out about 5 to 10 minutes into a rebuild.
In our comparison testing 8x 10K SAS drives in RAID 6 has a mean throughput of 800MiB/Second and about 250-450 IOPS per disk depending on the storage stack configuration.
SAS SSD would be anywhere from 25K IOPS per disk to 55K-75K IOPS per disk depending on whether read intensive, mixed use, or write intensive. There are some good deals out there on HGST SSDs (our preferred SAS SSD vendor).
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@phlipelder said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@dave247 said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
I'm planning the build on a new server. I originally intended on putting 8 x "900GB 15K RPM SAS 12Gbps 512e" drives into a RAID 10 config using an H740P adapter, but then I saw that there are quite a few options for SAS SSD. I haven't really learned too much about the differences of putting SSD in RAID and how it compares to HDD in RAID, so I wanted to see if anyone here (Scott) had any input on the matter.
Example: Would it be worth putting, say, 6 x "1.6TB SSD SAS Mix Use 12Gbps 512e" drives into a RAID 10 instead? Is there a better approach with SSD in RAID?
RAID 6 is the way to go. We lost a server after replacing a drive and it's RAID 10 pair decided to drop out about 5 to 10 minutes into a rebuild.
In our comparison testing 8x 10K SAS drives in RAID 6 has a mean throughput of 800MiB/Second and about 250-450 IOPS per disk depending on the storage stack configuration.
SAS SSD would be anywhere from 25K IOPS per disk to 55K-75K IOPS per disk depending on whether read intensive, mixed use, or write intensive. There are some good deals out there on HGST SSDs (our preferred SAS SSD vendor).
Yeah, I've decided on RAID 6 if I am able to go with SSD drives. I am building out the server on Dell and purchasing through our VAR when it comes time to order.
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@dave247 said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
BTW: why are we calling hard drives "Winchester drives"?
Because the platters (bullet holder) have to spin while an arm (hammer) moves to find whatever is needed.
Winchester guns are grand symbols of manual action required. With a lot of moving parts.
Whereas any fully automatic weapon would be like an SSD. No moving parts to find whatever is needed. (Fire bullets)
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@dustinb3403 said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@dave247 said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
BTW: why are we calling hard drives "Winchester drives"?
Because the platters (bullet holder) have to spin while an arm (hammer) moves to find whatever is needed.
Winchester guns are grand symbols of manual action required. With a lot of moving parts.
Whereas any fully automatic weapon would be like an SSD. No moving parts to find whatever is needed. (Fire bullets)
Now this is a freaking answer!:smiling_face_with_open_mouth_smiling_eyes:
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In 1973, IBM introduced the IBM 3340 "Winchester" disk drive and the 3348 data module, the first significant commercial use of low mass and low load heads with lubricated platters and the last IBM disk drive with removable media. This technology and its derivatives remained the standard through 2011. Project head Kenneth Haughton named it after the Winchester 30-30 rifle because it was planned to have two 30 MB spindles; however, the actual product shipped with two spindles for data modules of either 35 MB or 70 MB. - Wikipedia
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@scottalanmiller Didn't know you used Wikipedia ^_^
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@obsolesce said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@scottalanmiller Didn't know you used Wikipedia ^_^
Mostly Wikipedia uses me
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@scottalanmiller said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@obsolesce said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@scottalanmiller Didn't know you used Wikipedia ^_^
Mostly Wikipedia uses me
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@dave247 said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@phlipelder said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@dave247 said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
I'm planning the build on a new server. I originally intended on putting 8 x "900GB 15K RPM SAS 12Gbps 512e" drives into a RAID 10 config using an H740P adapter, but then I saw that there are quite a few options for SAS SSD. I haven't really learned too much about the differences of putting SSD in RAID and how it compares to HDD in RAID, so I wanted to see if anyone here (Scott) had any input on the matter.
Example: Would it be worth putting, say, 6 x "1.6TB SSD SAS Mix Use 12Gbps 512e" drives into a RAID 10 instead? Is there a better approach with SSD in RAID?
RAID 6 is the way to go. We lost a server after replacing a drive and it's RAID 10 pair decided to drop out about 5 to 10 minutes into a rebuild.
In our comparison testing 8x 10K SAS drives in RAID 6 has a mean throughput of 800MiB/Second and about 250-450 IOPS per disk depending on the storage stack configuration.
SAS SSD would be anywhere from 25K IOPS per disk to 55K-75K IOPS per disk depending on whether read intensive, mixed use, or write intensive. There are some good deals out there on HGST SSDs (our preferred SAS SSD vendor).
Yeah, I've decided on RAID 6 if I am able to go with SSD drives. I am building out the server on Dell and purchasing through our VAR when it comes time to order.
Serious question, now that you seem to understand the concepts of what you may actually need.
Why R6? Your current workload seems to be nowhere near that level of redundancy, and does not appear to need it. Use a pair of SSD in R1 or a triplet in R5.
Yeah, getting new hardware is a time to evaluate this. But why the big jump to R6?
Edit: Yes, I realize hat your early posts stated you wanted to minimize any potential downtime.
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@jaredbusch said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@dave247 said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@phlipelder said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
@dave247 said in SAS SSD vs SAS HDD in a RAID 10?:
I'm planning the build on a new server. I originally intended on putting 8 x "900GB 15K RPM SAS 12Gbps 512e" drives into a RAID 10 config using an H740P adapter, but then I saw that there are quite a few options for SAS SSD. I haven't really learned too much about the differences of putting SSD in RAID and how it compares to HDD in RAID, so I wanted to see if anyone here (Scott) had any input on the matter.
Example: Would it be worth putting, say, 6 x "1.6TB SSD SAS Mix Use 12Gbps 512e" drives into a RAID 10 instead? Is there a better approach with SSD in RAID?
RAID 6 is the way to go. We lost a server after replacing a drive and it's RAID 10 pair decided to drop out about 5 to 10 minutes into a rebuild.
In our comparison testing 8x 10K SAS drives in RAID 6 has a mean throughput of 800MiB/Second and about 250-450 IOPS per disk depending on the storage stack configuration.
SAS SSD would be anywhere from 25K IOPS per disk to 55K-75K IOPS per disk depending on whether read intensive, mixed use, or write intensive. There are some good deals out there on HGST SSDs (our preferred SAS SSD vendor).
Yeah, I've decided on RAID 6 if I am able to go with SSD drives. I am building out the server on Dell and purchasing through our VAR when it comes time to order.
Serious question, now that you seem to understand the concepts of what you may actually need.
Why R6? Your current workload seems to be nowhere near that level of redundancy, and does not appear to need it. Use a pair of SSD in R1 or a triplet in R5.
Yeah, getting new hardware is a time to evaluate this. But why the big jump to R6?
Edit: Yes, I realize hat your early posts stated you wanted to minimize any potential downtime.
I was going to post exactly this.
Your current array of 4 drives (I think you said you have 4) Is at a pretty large risk compared to a 4 drive SSD array (again the drives are at least one order of magnitude safer than most HDDs).
Sure it might only be another $400 for that extra disk to give you RAID 6 vs RAID 5, but why spend it?
One of the big things Scott harps at around here is correct spending. Personally I'm a bit surprised he hasn't brought this fact up already (OK he did a bit when I asked why one would look at SATA SSD RAID 10 instead of NVMe RAID 1 - costs).
This really does boil down to math, but odds are of course never zero, and someone does have to be the one who suffers the failure outside of the typical odds from time to time.
