Discussing Basic Income from Forbes Article
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@penguinwrangler said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Cleaners are interesting in this framework, because cleaning isn't a useless job, we need things to be cleaned. But often the cleaning is done to clean things for people doing useless jobs. If we eliminate, say, 50% of useless paper pushing jobs, how many bus drivers, cleaners, and other roles also disappear because while real themselves, they were ultimately supporting unneeded work?
But as humans we are flawed. I am not perfect, I am not 100% efficient. I mean the only way to 100% efficiency and no waste is to have everything done by automation. So there are always useless jobs.
Right, BUT if we eliminated all that we could, everyone would win.
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P.S. I'm still a proponent of the US Texan Canal. .
Thousands of miles to cut through to make a better "Panama" canal.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dustinb3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@penguinwrangler said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Taxes are similar. Tax reporting could be standardized and made automatic. Tell the government your details, pay your taxes. Same for everyone. But that would destroy an industry. So they don't, they make taxes convoluted so that people essentially have to either buy software or pay accountants to do work that shouldn't exist. It's all busy work just to create jobs.
Sure there are industries that will fade away, happens all the time. To think that the economy won't come up with jobs that don't even exist right now to fill the void is a little ludicrous. I mean Information Technology didn't exist when my parents were in school.
But jobs have been created since their time, and absolutely IT existed when your parents were around. The difference is a lot of the jobs can literally be automated, usually at massive scales.
It's not just automation. That's big, of course. But also we just need to recognize that many jobs exist just to keep idle hands busy. The government doesn't want to report that people don't have jobs, and they don't want people idle, it makes other people angry. So they come up with ways to employ people, even if the results of their work don't matter.
Sounds like a very big conspiracy. I do sell tin foil hats if you need a new one.
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@dustinb3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
P.S. I'm still a proponent of the US Texan Canal. .
Thousands of miles to cut through to make a better "Panama" canal.
Where the heck woudl that go? Beaumont to Seattle?
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@penguinwrangler said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dustinb3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@penguinwrangler said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Taxes are similar. Tax reporting could be standardized and made automatic. Tell the government your details, pay your taxes. Same for everyone. But that would destroy an industry. So they don't, they make taxes convoluted so that people essentially have to either buy software or pay accountants to do work that shouldn't exist. It's all busy work just to create jobs.
Sure there are industries that will fade away, happens all the time. To think that the economy won't come up with jobs that don't even exist right now to fill the void is a little ludicrous. I mean Information Technology didn't exist when my parents were in school.
But jobs have been created since their time, and absolutely IT existed when your parents were around. The difference is a lot of the jobs can literally be automated, usually at massive scales.
It's not just automation. That's big, of course. But also we just need to recognize that many jobs exist just to keep idle hands busy. The government doesn't want to report that people don't have jobs, and they don't want people idle, it makes other people angry. So they come up with ways to employ people, even if the results of their work don't matter.
Sounds like a very big conspiracy. I do sell tin foil hats if you need a new one.
It's just basic economics. Ever heard of the WPA?
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dustinb3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
P.S. I'm still a proponent of the US Texan Canal. .
Thousands of miles to cut through to make a better "Panama" canal.
Where the heck woudl that go? Beaumont to Seattle?
Coast to coast on the US side, faster transport for the piles of crap that get shipped around the world already.
The logistics of where it starts and ends, meh not my job
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@penguinwrangler said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dustinb3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@penguinwrangler said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Taxes are similar. Tax reporting could be standardized and made automatic. Tell the government your details, pay your taxes. Same for everyone. But that would destroy an industry. So they don't, they make taxes convoluted so that people essentially have to either buy software or pay accountants to do work that shouldn't exist. It's all busy work just to create jobs.
Sure there are industries that will fade away, happens all the time. To think that the economy won't come up with jobs that don't even exist right now to fill the void is a little ludicrous. I mean Information Technology didn't exist when my parents were in school.
But jobs have been created since their time, and absolutely IT existed when your parents were around. The difference is a lot of the jobs can literally be automated, usually at massive scales.
It's not just automation. That's big, of course. But also we just need to recognize that many jobs exist just to keep idle hands busy. The government doesn't want to report that people don't have jobs, and they don't want people idle, it makes other people angry. So they come up with ways to employ people, even if the results of their work don't matter.
Sounds like a very big conspiracy. I do sell tin foil hats if you need a new one.
It's just basic economics. Ever heard of the WPA?
You mean the bloated government program the prolonged the depression and should have never happened, yes.
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Keeping people busy has been a key part of government economics since they first began. Calling "basic economic theories" a conspiracy is weird. That's like saying that "retirement investing" is a conspiracy. Of a sort, I suppose. It's an organized program to achieve a result. Only it's not nefarious or secret.
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@penguinwrangler said in Non-IT News Thread:
@momurda said in Non-IT News Thread:
@penguinwrangler He's certainly not demeaning blue collar jobs.
He is demeaning the useless paper pushing jobs that don't do anything.
Like half of the people at any given office get paid to do.
You know, the paper pushers who do paperwork, then push that pile of paper (real or electronic) down the line for someone else to do more paperwork and then they push that on down the line. The people who have jobs simply because that the boss wont automate, find out that they go to weekly cult meetings together. The people whose entire existence is to do nothing but show up and collect a paycheck. the one that needs constant validation after completing the most menial task.OHHHH...but wait it says "If a cleaner or bus driver doesnât report for work, it hurts other people. (These Graeber terms âshitâ jobs.)" So calling blue collar jobs shit jobs isn't demeaning?
@penguinwrangler Not sure what your point is. Those Are 'shit' jobs. Dont believe me, go ask your dad if he would have rather gone to school and got a engineering degree or maybe physics, or work cleaning toilets his whole life?
Likely anybody in the world who works as one would like to have a different job. But at least those jobs are doing actual work, getting things done. The useless office worker paper pusher is accomplishing nothing at all, except wasting their life but pushing piles of paper around. Also, I think youre misunderstanding the author here. He doesn't apply bullshit term to cleaners and such. He applies this to the people I mention, paper pushers, financial advisers, etc. He actually says 'shit' jobs like cleaning toilets is more valuable than a financial adviser, one of his 'bullshit' job types. -
@penguinwrangler said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@penguinwrangler said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dustinb3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@penguinwrangler said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Taxes are similar. Tax reporting could be standardized and made automatic. Tell the government your details, pay your taxes. Same for everyone. But that would destroy an industry. So they don't, they make taxes convoluted so that people essentially have to either buy software or pay accountants to do work that shouldn't exist. It's all busy work just to create jobs.
Sure there are industries that will fade away, happens all the time. To think that the economy won't come up with jobs that don't even exist right now to fill the void is a little ludicrous. I mean Information Technology didn't exist when my parents were in school.
But jobs have been created since their time, and absolutely IT existed when your parents were around. The difference is a lot of the jobs can literally be automated, usually at massive scales.
It's not just automation. That's big, of course. But also we just need to recognize that many jobs exist just to keep idle hands busy. The government doesn't want to report that people don't have jobs, and they don't want people idle, it makes other people angry. So they come up with ways to employ people, even if the results of their work don't matter.
Sounds like a very big conspiracy. I do sell tin foil hats if you need a new one.
It's just basic economics. Ever heard of the WPA?
You mean the bloated government program the prolonged the depression and should have never happened, yes.
Yes, that's STANDARD business. Why do you think the government has SO MANY jobs today? Because the alternative is to put people on wellfare. Personally, I prefer wellfare, that's the point of guaranteed basic income.
How much of our military is idle? How many professors teach useless students getting degrees that won't aid their jobs? How many facilities people work in those universities? How many students sit in class rather than working? How many jobs exist only to make people not be listed as unemployed, yet add nothing to the economy and often even take away from it? Millions.
This isn't conspiracy. It's two approaches to having idle workers. One theory, the generally accepted one, is that everyone needs to work, whether useful or not, in order to get paid. The other theory, called guaranteed basic income, says that is would be better to make the economy as performant as possible and pay idle people to sit home.
Two approaches to the same problem. You HAVE to pick one or the other to have things work. The US leans totally to the "make fake jobs" side. Europe is starting to lean the other way.
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@momurda said in Non-IT News Thread:
@penguinwrangler said in Non-IT News Thread:
@momurda said in Non-IT News Thread:
@penguinwrangler He's certainly not demeaning blue collar jobs.
He is demeaning the useless paper pushing jobs that don't do anything.
Like half of the people at any given office get paid to do.
You know, the paper pushers who do paperwork, then push that pile of paper (real or electronic) down the line for someone else to do more paperwork and then they push that on down the line. The people who have jobs simply because that the boss wont automate, find out that they go to weekly cult meetings together. The people whose entire existence is to do nothing but show up and collect a paycheck. the one that needs constant validation after completing the most menial task.OHHHH...but wait it says "If a cleaner or bus driver doesnât report for work, it hurts other people. (These Graeber terms âshitâ jobs.)" So calling blue collar jobs shit jobs isn't demeaning?
@penguinwrangler Not sure what your point is. Those Are 'shit' jobs. Dont believe me, go ask your dad if he would have rather gone to school and got a engineering degree or maybe physics, or work cleaning toilets his whole life?
That's not a good way to look at it. Loads of people would clean if the pay was the same as being an engineer. Heck, I might.
But GBI idea is that instead of doing an unneeded job, you do NOTHING. Go home, spend time with the kids, paint, learn piano, go for a walk, live the Star Trek utopia. It's not get a "better" job instead of an unnecessary one. It's not having to work.
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@momurda said in Non-IT News Thread:
@penguinwrangler said in Non-IT News Thread:
@momurda said in Non-IT News Thread:
@penguinwrangler He's certainly not demeaning blue collar jobs.
He is demeaning the useless paper pushing jobs that don't do anything.
Like half of the people at any given office get paid to do.
You know, the paper pushers who do paperwork, then push that pile of paper (real or electronic) down the line for someone else to do more paperwork and then they push that on down the line. The people who have jobs simply because that the boss wont automate, find out that they go to weekly cult meetings together. The people whose entire existence is to do nothing but show up and collect a paycheck. the one that needs constant validation after completing the most menial task.OHHHH...but wait it says "If a cleaner or bus driver doesnât report for work, it hurts other people. (These Graeber terms âshitâ jobs.)" So calling blue collar jobs shit jobs isn't demeaning?
@penguinwrangler Not sure what your point is. Those Are 'shit' jobs. Dont believe me, go ask your dad if he would have rather gone to school and got a engineering degree or maybe physics, or work cleaning toilets his whole life?
Likely anybody in the world who works as one would like to have a different job. But at least those jobs are doing actual work, getting things done. The useless office worker paper pusher is accomplishing nothing at all, except wasting their life but pushing piles of paper around. Also, I think youre misunderstanding the author here. He doesn't apply bullshit term to cleaners and such. He applies this to the people I mention, paper pushers, financial advisers, etc. He actually says 'shit' jobs like cleaning toilets is more valuable than a financial adviser, one of his 'bullshit' job types.I do get it and I do understand the person who has the BS job as the author puts it and is doing nothing and sure eliminate those jobs. My Dad didn't want to go to school, he didn't want to be an engineer or anything like that. He wanted to work with his hands. Many people do. My step-son wants to work with his hands. He doesn't want to go to school. He couldn't have been happier the day he graduated High School.
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@penguinwrangler said in Non-IT News Thread:
@momurda said in Non-IT News Thread:
@penguinwrangler said in Non-IT News Thread:
@momurda said in Non-IT News Thread:
@penguinwrangler He's certainly not demeaning blue collar jobs.
He is demeaning the useless paper pushing jobs that don't do anything.
Like half of the people at any given office get paid to do.
You know, the paper pushers who do paperwork, then push that pile of paper (real or electronic) down the line for someone else to do more paperwork and then they push that on down the line. The people who have jobs simply because that the boss wont automate, find out that they go to weekly cult meetings together. The people whose entire existence is to do nothing but show up and collect a paycheck. the one that needs constant validation after completing the most menial task.OHHHH...but wait it says "If a cleaner or bus driver doesnât report for work, it hurts other people. (These Graeber terms âshitâ jobs.)" So calling blue collar jobs shit jobs isn't demeaning?
@penguinwrangler Not sure what your point is. Those Are 'shit' jobs. Dont believe me, go ask your dad if he would have rather gone to school and got a engineering degree or maybe physics, or work cleaning toilets his whole life?
Likely anybody in the world who works as one would like to have a different job. But at least those jobs are doing actual work, getting things done. The useless office worker paper pusher is accomplishing nothing at all, except wasting their life but pushing piles of paper around. Also, I think youre misunderstanding the author here. He doesn't apply bullshit term to cleaners and such. He applies this to the people I mention, paper pushers, financial advisers, etc. He actually says 'shit' jobs like cleaning toilets is more valuable than a financial adviser, one of his 'bullshit' job types.I do get it and I do understand the person who has the BS job as the author puts it and is doing nothing and sure eliminate those jobs. My Dad didn't want to go to school, he didn't want to be an engineer or anything like that. He wanted to work with his hands. Many people do. My step-son wants to work with his hands. He doesn't want to go to school. He couldn't have been happier the day he graduated High School.
The problem here is that cleaners are useful so it's a terrible example of "useless work". Cleaners are one of the most likely to be useful positions out there.
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Instead of a cleaner, who likely literally makes dirty things clean. Think of a trench digger who digs unneeded trenches that are just filled in again. Working "with their hands" to no end, just digging to dig.
Would your dad have been equally happy doing that if the pay was the same as sitting home with his kids?
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Why we want GBI....
- More time for families. Parents get to be with kids way more.
- Higher standards of living. Everyone gets more.
- Poverty simply vanishes, wellfare isn't a stigma.
- Humans suddenly get to pursue the arts, instead of pushing papers.
- Increases the chances for scientific discovery, or artistic accomplishment.
- People do work that makes them happy, rather than work that pays the bills.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@penguinwrangler said in Non-IT News Thread:
@momurda said in Non-IT News Thread:
@penguinwrangler said in Non-IT News Thread:
@momurda said in Non-IT News Thread:
@penguinwrangler He's certainly not demeaning blue collar jobs.
He is demeaning the useless paper pushing jobs that don't do anything.
Like half of the people at any given office get paid to do.
You know, the paper pushers who do paperwork, then push that pile of paper (real or electronic) down the line for someone else to do more paperwork and then they push that on down the line. The people who have jobs simply because that the boss wont automate, find out that they go to weekly cult meetings together. The people whose entire existence is to do nothing but show up and collect a paycheck. the one that needs constant validation after completing the most menial task.OHHHH...but wait it says "If a cleaner or bus driver doesnât report for work, it hurts other people. (These Graeber terms âshitâ jobs.)" So calling blue collar jobs shit jobs isn't demeaning?
@penguinwrangler Not sure what your point is. Those Are 'shit' jobs. Dont believe me, go ask your dad if he would have rather gone to school and got a engineering degree or maybe physics, or work cleaning toilets his whole life?
Likely anybody in the world who works as one would like to have a different job. But at least those jobs are doing actual work, getting things done. The useless office worker paper pusher is accomplishing nothing at all, except wasting their life but pushing piles of paper around. Also, I think youre misunderstanding the author here. He doesn't apply bullshit term to cleaners and such. He applies this to the people I mention, paper pushers, financial advisers, etc. He actually says 'shit' jobs like cleaning toilets is more valuable than a financial adviser, one of his 'bullshit' job types.I do get it and I do understand the person who has the BS job as the author puts it and is doing nothing and sure eliminate those jobs. My Dad didn't want to go to school, he didn't want to be an engineer or anything like that. He wanted to work with his hands. Many people do. My step-son wants to work with his hands. He doesn't want to go to school. He couldn't have been happier the day he graduated High School.
The problem here is that cleaners are useful so it's a terrible example of "useless work". Cleaners are one of the most likely to be useful positions out there.
I am not saying that the author was saying the cleaners were useless work, in fact they say "If a cleaner or bus driver doesnât report for work, it hurts other people. (These Graeber terms âshitâ jobs.)" He still can't comprehend someone wanting to be a cleaner or bus driver. That is my main point. Honestly, I can do IT, I am good at it but I don't like it. If I didn't have all the back problems I have I would have gone into the construction trades or something like that.
My main point is our education system stears people to the useless work instead of the useful work.
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@penguinwrangler said in Non-IT News Thread:
My main point is our education system stears people to the useless work instead of the useful work.
Well if you combine your point ( with which I agree) and my point (that school itself is there to create useless work) I think you'll see why I like GBI. The primary PURPOSE of school is to support the very thing you dislike about it. Sure, it does other things, but this is the big one.
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The problem is, especially with American ethics, useless jobs are seen as WAY better than GBI. American ethics prefers "fair" treatment. "You work, you get paid. "
European ethics prefers overall well being. "Whatever is best for everyone."
American ethics sound great, because we grew up here. Fair sounds nice. It is nice. But it means we are all willing to lose a few dollars to keep someone else for getting a hundred dollars we don't feel that he deserves. It's not logical, it's spiteful in the end. But that's why useless jobs are SO popular in the US.
Not that they dont' exist in Europe, I've seen them a lot. But the US seems passionate about keeping them while Europe seems to want to fight them.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Instead of a cleaner, who likely literally makes dirty things clean. Think of a trench digger who digs unneeded trenches that are just filled in again. Working "with their hands" to no end, just digging to dig.
Would your dad have been equally happy doing that if the pay was the same as sitting home with his kids?
I have never seen people out that dig trenches just to fill them up again. Where does that happen? Useless positions in big corporations or government, sure those are there like the person in the article highlights. Where are people employed en masse to just occupy their time? You mention pharmacists earlier. Sure maybe they could automate most of what a pharmacist does, but there are drug cocktails that do take a pharmacist to actually make. Also before automation was available we needed humans to do it so we might eventually see pharmacists phased out but it does take time for things to adjust. So you can't say people are just employed as pharmacists to occupy their time.
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GBI isn't a bad thing, but in the world today you have to look at the politics of it and wonder what would happen if some large percentage of the workforce up and stop working.
Would GBI continue every 4 or 8 years in the US with the way politicians are? How would it be supported and paid for? Who would pay for it? Would you tax the GBI income from the very same people you're saying "don't work, we don't need you"?
