Unitrends and Office365
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@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
It's my semantics issue, and you'll likely not get me to change
The problem is, you've said both that it is and that it is not a backup. Which I understand, can be the cat in the box, is it a backup? We only know when it gets restored? I suppose.
Which is why I default to make sure you have a backup that you and your team can access.
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@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
The Short, Short version: If I or my users cannot restore from it, I cannot consider it a backup.
If this isn't saying that there isn't a backup, what were you saying?
That I cannot consider it a backup.
Right, so you are saying it is not a backup. That goes against your statement that you agreed that it was a backup.
Perhaps a better way to say it: It is a backup, but I don't count it, lol.
That would be better. Or even better... it's a backup, but not useful as I need it to be.
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@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
It's my semantics issue, and you'll likely not get me to change
The problem is, you've said both that it is and that it is not a backup. Which I understand, can be the cat in the box, is it a backup? We only know when it gets restored? I suppose.
Which is why I default to make sure you have a backup that you and your team can access.
I don't think that that's a good way to look at it, because that triggers the "backup based on perspective" problem again. I don't believe that "perspective" should be included. Otherwise it's all "who you ask." And that's not useful.
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@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
The Short, Short version: If I or my users cannot restore from it, I cannot consider it a backup.
If this isn't saying that there isn't a backup, what were you saying?
That I cannot consider it a backup.
Right, so you are saying it is not a backup. That goes against your statement that you agreed that it was a backup.
Perhaps a better way to say it: It is a backup, but I don't count it, lol.
That would be better. Or even better... it's a backup, but not useful as I need it to be.
Frankly - it's not useful to you at all. It's only useful to MS in the situation where MS has a failure they need to recover from. And what's worse, we have no idea how old their backups are.
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@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
What's your recovery point for a file if lost because of user deletion, if lost because of cryptoware that is really advanced or because of hardware failure or filesystem corruption are totally different things. It's all RPO, true, but it's not something that you can just answer with "five hours", it's complex.
Why would those how things happened matter? You have a point in time that you as a company want to be able to recover to... so you plan for that.
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Example... CEO wants to know if there are backups.
CEO asks IT Manager: "Manager needs someone else to restore so says no backups."
CEO asks Backup Manager: "Backup manager says yes, there are backups"
CEO asks end users: "End users have no control and say No, our data is not backed up."
CEO asks senior admin: "Senior Admin has backup access and says Yes, we have backups."
CEO asks junior admin: "No, no backups for me."
CEO asks janitor: "Jantor says no backups." -
@Dashrender said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
The Short, Short version: If I or my users cannot restore from it, I cannot consider it a backup.
If this isn't saying that there isn't a backup, what were you saying?
That I cannot consider it a backup.
Right, so you are saying it is not a backup. That goes against your statement that you agreed that it was a backup.
Perhaps a better way to say it: It is a backup, but I don't count it, lol.
That would be better. Or even better... it's a backup, but not useful as I need it to be.
Frankly - it's not useful to you at all. It's only useful to MS in the situation where MS has a failure they need to recover from. And what's worse, we have no idea how old their backups are.
You can't really say that Microsoft's continuity doesn't matter to you.
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@Dashrender said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
What's your recovery point for a file if lost because of user deletion, if lost because of cryptoware that is really advanced or because of hardware failure or filesystem corruption are totally different things. It's all RPO, true, but it's not something that you can just answer with "five hours", it's complex.
Why would those how things happened matter? You have a point in time that you as a company want to be able to recover to... so you plan for that.
Because how it happens matters, it just does. Each of those things create different recovery scenarios. Ask it the opposite way... how can they not matter?
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@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
Example... CEO wants to know if there are backups.
CEO asks IT Manager: "Manager needs someone else to restore so says no backups."
CEO asks Backup Manager: "Backup manager says yes, there are backups"
CEO asks end users: "End users have no control and say No, our data is not backed up."
CEO asks senior admin: "Senior Admin has backup access and says Yes, we have backups."
CEO asks junior admin: "No, no backups for me."
CEO asks janitor: "Jantor says no backups."That is why the backup team sends out emails a time or two per year reminding folks that Yes, we do have backups, and they are taken at such and such a time every night.
Everybody's on the same page (yes, we did this at my last job for a while).
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@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@Dashrender said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
The Short, Short version: If I or my users cannot restore from it, I cannot consider it a backup.
If this isn't saying that there isn't a backup, what were you saying?
That I cannot consider it a backup.
Right, so you are saying it is not a backup. That goes against your statement that you agreed that it was a backup.
Perhaps a better way to say it: It is a backup, but I don't count it, lol.
That would be better. Or even better... it's a backup, but not useful as I need it to be.
Frankly - it's not useful to you at all. It's only useful to MS in the situation where MS has a failure they need to recover from. And what's worse, we have no idea how old their backups are.
You can't really say that Microsoft's continuity doesn't matter to you.
Considering that most people have recovery times that far exceed the lack of recovery of what is available in MS's system, MS's ability to restore their failed system might not be as valuable you think. it might just be better for them to spin up a whole new whatever and we just start restoring our own data continuity plan. Maybe, maybe not.
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@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
Example... CEO wants to know if there are backups.
CEO asks IT Manager: "Manager needs someone else to restore so says no backups."
CEO asks Backup Manager: "Backup manager says yes, there are backups"
CEO asks end users: "End users have no control and say No, our data is not backed up."
CEO asks senior admin: "Senior Admin has backup access and says Yes, we have backups."
CEO asks junior admin: "No, no backups for me."
CEO asks janitor: "Jantor says no backups."That is why the backup team sends out emails a time or two per year reminding folks that Yes,
That makes no difference as long as perspective exists. If "I have access to do the restore" is a requirement for "are there backups" that email is just lies. Because it is sent to people to whom there are no backups.
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@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
Example... CEO wants to know if there are backups.
CEO asks IT Manager: "Manager needs someone else to restore so says no backups."
CEO asks Backup Manager: "Backup manager says yes, there are backups"
CEO asks end users: "End users have no control and say No, our data is not backed up."
CEO asks senior admin: "Senior Admin has backup access and says Yes, we have backups."
CEO asks junior admin: "No, no backups for me."
CEO asks janitor: "Jantor says no backups."That is why the backup team sends out emails a time or two per year reminding folks that Yes, we do have backups, and they are taken at such and such a time every night.
Everybody's on the same page (yes, we did this at my last job for a while).
Remember, Microsoft could remind you every day that you HAVE backups.
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@Dashrender said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@Dashrender said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
The Short, Short version: If I or my users cannot restore from it, I cannot consider it a backup.
If this isn't saying that there isn't a backup, what were you saying?
That I cannot consider it a backup.
Right, so you are saying it is not a backup. That goes against your statement that you agreed that it was a backup.
Perhaps a better way to say it: It is a backup, but I don't count it, lol.
That would be better. Or even better... it's a backup, but not useful as I need it to be.
Frankly - it's not useful to you at all. It's only useful to MS in the situation where MS has a failure they need to recover from. And what's worse, we have no idea how old their backups are.
You can't really say that Microsoft's continuity doesn't matter to you.
Considering that most people have recovery times that far exceed the lack of recovery of what is available in MS's system, MS's ability to restore their failed system might not be as valuable you think. it might just be better for them to spin up a whole new whatever and we just start restoring our own data continuity plan. Maybe, maybe not.
I don't have details but I'm unsure what you are saying. MS can likely recover very quickly. LTO restores are quite fast, and don't congest the WAN link like customer restores would.
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@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
Example... CEO wants to know if there are backups.
CEO asks IT Manager: "Manager needs someone else to restore so says no backups."
CEO asks Backup Manager: "Backup manager says yes, there are backups"
CEO asks end users: "End users have no control and say No, our data is not backed up."
CEO asks senior admin: "Senior Admin has backup access and says Yes, we have backups."
CEO asks junior admin: "No, no backups for me."
CEO asks janitor: "Jantor says no backups."That is why the backup team sends out emails a time or two per year reminding folks that Yes, we do have backups, and they are taken at such and such a time every night.
Everybody's on the same page (yes, we did this at my last job for a while).
Remember, Microsoft could remind you every day that you HAVE backups.
Sure, as long as they also remind us that they only thing they are useful for is if MS has a glitch that they, MS, has to recover from.
Dafyre's example specifically tells the users what capabilities IT has for recovering their end user's data. i.e. daily single backups, hourly, etc. Keep for 2 weeks, etc.
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@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@Dashrender said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@Dashrender said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
The Short, Short version: If I or my users cannot restore from it, I cannot consider it a backup.
If this isn't saying that there isn't a backup, what were you saying?
That I cannot consider it a backup.
Right, so you are saying it is not a backup. That goes against your statement that you agreed that it was a backup.
Perhaps a better way to say it: It is a backup, but I don't count it, lol.
That would be better. Or even better... it's a backup, but not useful as I need it to be.
Frankly - it's not useful to you at all. It's only useful to MS in the situation where MS has a failure they need to recover from. And what's worse, we have no idea how old their backups are.
You can't really say that Microsoft's continuity doesn't matter to you.
Considering that most people have recovery times that far exceed the lack of recovery of what is available in MS's system, MS's ability to restore their failed system might not be as valuable you think. it might just be better for them to spin up a whole new whatever and we just start restoring our own data continuity plan. Maybe, maybe not.
I don't have details but I'm unsure what you are saying. MS can likely recover very quickly. LTO restores are quite fast, and don't congest the WAN link like customer restores would.
But if their LTO restore is from 24 hours ago, that data might be completely useless. Granted in a ODfB setup it's unlikely that most would be useless - but assuming we had a Unitrends backup appliance backing up O365, we'd still be restoring under our own backup RPO.
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@Dashrender said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
Example... CEO wants to know if there are backups.
CEO asks IT Manager: "Manager needs someone else to restore so says no backups."
CEO asks Backup Manager: "Backup manager says yes, there are backups"
CEO asks end users: "End users have no control and say No, our data is not backed up."
CEO asks senior admin: "Senior Admin has backup access and says Yes, we have backups."
CEO asks junior admin: "No, no backups for me."
CEO asks janitor: "Jantor says no backups."That is why the backup team sends out emails a time or two per year reminding folks that Yes, we do have backups, and they are taken at such and such a time every night.
Everybody's on the same page (yes, we did this at my last job for a while).
Remember, Microsoft could remind you every day that you HAVE backups.
Sure, as long as they also remind us that they only thing they are useful for is if MS has a glitch that they, MS, has to recover from.
Dafyre's example specifically tells the users what capabilities IT has for recovering their end user's data. i.e. daily single backups, hourly, etc. Keep for 2 weeks, etc.
Sure, but in both cases, if you consider that YOUR ability to restore defines something as a backup, the MS = IT and they say "there are backups " and to everyone else, there are no backups.
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@Dashrender said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@Dashrender said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@Dashrender said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
The Short, Short version: If I or my users cannot restore from it, I cannot consider it a backup.
If this isn't saying that there isn't a backup, what were you saying?
That I cannot consider it a backup.
Right, so you are saying it is not a backup. That goes against your statement that you agreed that it was a backup.
Perhaps a better way to say it: It is a backup, but I don't count it, lol.
That would be better. Or even better... it's a backup, but not useful as I need it to be.
Frankly - it's not useful to you at all. It's only useful to MS in the situation where MS has a failure they need to recover from. And what's worse, we have no idea how old their backups are.
You can't really say that Microsoft's continuity doesn't matter to you.
Considering that most people have recovery times that far exceed the lack of recovery of what is available in MS's system, MS's ability to restore their failed system might not be as valuable you think. it might just be better for them to spin up a whole new whatever and we just start restoring our own data continuity plan. Maybe, maybe not.
I don't have details but I'm unsure what you are saying. MS can likely recover very quickly. LTO restores are quite fast, and don't congest the WAN link like customer restores would.
But if their LTO restore is from 24 hours ago, that data might be completely useless. Granted in a ODfB setup it's unlikely that most would be useless - but assuming we had a Unitrends backup appliance backing up O365, we'd still be restoring under our own backup RPO.
True, but if you set your own RPO to 24 hours... you might have the same problem
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The way you talk about us IT workers not being IT in this scenario.
It's like the business authorizing a group of end users to back up their own stuff.
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@BRRABill said in Unitrends and Office365:
The way you talk about us IT workers not being IT in this scenario.
It's like the business authorizing a group of end users to back up their own stuff.
No, I'm trying to point out that that is how it is being thought about when end user perspective is involved. The more crazy it sounds, the more you are getting my point.
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Some of the things I am learning from CISSP
Here is the answer this question of whether Microsoft's backup is sufficient:
- BIA needs to be done to assess how much downtime is acceptable.
- We must also determine at what level are restorations necessary (email, mailbox, etc)
- Once the downtime and level is determined, a policy should be made stating acceptable backups for the organization
- At this point, we can assess if Microsoft's Office 365's default retention is acceptable for your organization.
