Unitrends and Office365
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@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
But if the drives fail and the data is lost, it gets restored. You are cherry picking use cases to claim there is no backup, when it is simple to prove that there is one.
I get that if the drives fail, the data is lost, and Microsoft restores THEIR backup.
But can you call Microsoft and say "My user whoopsied a file and deleted their recycle bin on their O365 account. Can you restore the file from yesterday?"
Right, you are cherry picking. You know that there is a backup. And you know that if the system fails you get access to it. You want a very specific type of access to a specific type of backup. You are trying to apply the term "backup" which is very broad, to a very specific thing.
Try this... what if we said that the system had "email". And you keep saying "but I didn't get an email from my mom today, therefore there is no email." We can prove that you have email, because we are emailing you and you are receiving it. but if you don't get an email from your mom, you refuse to acknowledge the system because it doesn't have the specific email that you want.
I understand completely the desire for a specific type of protection, but trying to redefine backups to mean what you want isn't going to work.
Just because I didn't get an email from my mother today doesn't mean I have no email -- especially not when I'm communicating with you via that same email.
That scenario isn't going to fly... I need a better example so I can see your train of thought. -
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
Why would an IT department refuse to restore an end-users's file? That makes zero sense to me.
It's a common thing, just ask end users. Also, and I've seen this a lot, end users assume "has a backup" means "every file, in every version, ever" is stored somewhere even when there is nothing of the sort. Backups might only be taken once a day or once a week and only stored for so long. Even if you have total control and let end users do their own restores "is it backed up" is not a simple thing to answer from any specific use case.
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@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
But if the drives fail and the data is lost, it gets restored. You are cherry picking use cases to claim there is no backup, when it is simple to prove that there is one.
I get that if the drives fail, the data is lost, and Microsoft restores THEIR backup.
But can you call Microsoft and say "My user whoopsied a file and deleted their recycle bin on their O365 account. Can you restore the file from yesterday?"
Right, you are cherry picking. You know that there is a backup. And you know that if the system fails you get access to it. You want a very specific type of access to a specific type of backup. You are trying to apply the term "backup" which is very broad, to a very specific thing.
Try this... what if we said that the system had "email". And you keep saying "but I didn't get an email from my mom today, therefore there is no email." We can prove that you have email, because we are emailing you and you are receiving it. but if you don't get an email from your mom, you refuse to acknowledge the system because it doesn't have the specific email that you want.
I understand completely the desire for a specific type of protection, but trying to redefine backups to mean what you want isn't going to work.
Just because I didn't get an email from my mother today doesn't mean I have no email -- especially not when I'm communicating with you via that same email.
Just because you can't control restoring one file you want doesn't mean that a backup isn't sitting there. It's exactly the same. You don't like HOW it is backed up or HOW you get to restore and are using your desire for certain access as a definition for if something is backed up. Just like not getting the email you want would be claiming that there is no email.
Clearly email exists, but no more clearly than a backup obviously exists and we can't state otherwise.
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Think of it this way....
If the hardware dies, do the files get restored from somewhere?
Answer: yes, of course
From where?
From, oh, right, from the backup.
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@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@BRRABill said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said
Because there is already a backup taken by the vendor. The question here is not "backup vs no backup". It's "that backup vs. this back and that backup."
This is the answer always given, which I find a bit unhelpful to people looking for answers.
In any of the scenarios I mention, this answer is not helpful, and will leave you without your files.
If this is your concern, you should be very careful not to ask the question "is there a backup?", because there is, but that isn't what you want to know.
This is very misleading - I know what you, Scott are driving at. But for a normal business person, they shouldn't have to drill someone with a million questions to make sure that things are recoverable. Granted, perhaps they should be required to ask more than simply - is there a backup. Instead they should perhaps ask - what is the restore time in the case of cryptoware? What is the recover point (in time) options?
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The Short, Short version: If I or my users cannot restore from it, I cannot consider it a backup.
Webster's Dictionary, Backup... See section 5a:
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/backup?s=tIf I cannot use it, then I cannot consider it my own backup
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@Dashrender said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@BRRABill said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said
Because there is already a backup taken by the vendor. The question here is not "backup vs no backup". It's "that backup vs. this back and that backup."
This is the answer always given, which I find a bit unhelpful to people looking for answers.
In any of the scenarios I mention, this answer is not helpful, and will leave you without your files.
If this is your concern, you should be very careful not to ask the question "is there a backup?", because there is, but that isn't what you want to know.
This is very misleading - I know what you, Scott are driving at. But for a normal business person, they shouldn't have to drill someone with a million questions to make sure that things are recoverable.
Yes, they should. This is something you should never feel that anyone has the ability to skip. It's never excusable to gloss over data protection to matter what level a business person is at.
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@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
If I cannot use it, then I cannot consider it my own backup
No one asked if they had their OWN backup.
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So bottom line, your end users don't have backups. Your business doesn't have backups. Only IT has backups by your definition.
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@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
If I cannot use it, then I cannot consider it my own backup
No one asked if they had their OWN backup.
I thought that's what this whole thread is about -- using Unitrends to make your own backup of O365, lol.
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@Dashrender said in Unitrends and Office365:
Granted, perhaps they should be required to ask more than simply - is there a backup. Instead they should perhaps ask - what is the restore time in the case of cryptoware? What is the recover point (in time) options?
Yes, same as you would have to do in any other scenario. Going to this one particular SaaS application doesn't change the rules of the universe and excuse skipping those things that you could never skip anywhere else.
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@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
So bottom line, your end users don't have backups. Your business doesn't have backups. Only IT has backups by your definition.
Is that not the department that should handle managing backups?
Certainly not the CEO's office, unless they feel a need to maintain that level of control. I am fairly certain that I would resign from any position in which the CEO demands full control of the backup process.
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@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
So bottom line, your end users don't have backups. Your business doesn't have backups. Only IT has backups by your definition.
Is that not the department that should handle managing backups?
Yes, but you defined access to backups by you, the end user as what makes something a backup, not to the IT department, which is Microsoft in this case.
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@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
Certainly not the CEO's office, unless they feel a need to maintain that level of control. I am fairly certain that I would resign from any position in which the CEO demands full control of the backup process.
In this case, you are representing the CEO to the IT department and you are demanding access to the backups.
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Again, I'm not saying that user controlled restores or access to more granular restores are bad. I'm saying that there is no grey area here and claims that there is no backup are ridiculous and obviously will create situations where people misuse terms and that's what leads to big gaps in protections.
Bottom line is you cannot redefine things, you will always be the one that loses when you do that. Words have meaning, that's their purpose. The problem here is that there are backups, but that isn't what is desired. But everyone hopes to push some blame onto Microsoft for that oversight, but it's not their problem. They have backups.
It's a semantic game of trying to redefine what words mean to suit our desires. Remember, nothing is more important in IT than semantics. Good semantics would make it obvious that "are there backups" isn't enough for any serious conversation around data protection. Data protection is a complex thing in all scenarios. No amount of desire for that not to be the case can make that change.
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@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@Dashrender said in Unitrends and Office365:
Granted, perhaps they should be required to ask more than simply - is there a backup. Instead they should perhaps ask - what is the restore time in the case of cryptoware? What is the recover point (in time) options?
Yes, same as you would have to do in any other scenario. Going to this one particular SaaS application doesn't change the rules of the universe and excuse skipping those things that you could never skip anywhere else.
OK sure, I'll grant you that - but the ultimate end user (me the IT person managing this system) is - can I restore when something bad happens on my side - and the answer is NO - I can not. I really don't care if MS can recover when they have a server failure (OK really I do, but frankly that's more of the platform side of things, and less about my actual data). I, and Willard and the rest, care about our ability to recover when a user completely trashes every thing they have access to. This is all almost any of use have EVER cared about.
There is a whole new paradigm with these hosted solutions. In the past, when we managed both the hardware/OS and the data, we had full solid backups plans covering all of this. In the SMB space this is very typically a singular solution for all of it. Now, now we have break from this type of thinking. Which is fine, but does require education/reminding/updating.. whatever you want to call it.
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When I worked in financial services and backups were a legal mandate, this stuff was extra clear. IT took backups, once a day. But end users wanted to create and delete files on an hourly basis. Those files would never get backed up. The servers were backed up, every day, and retained for many years. But loads of data was lost because it was being deleted before ever being backed up.
Even in a case like a Fortune 100 with big time backup teams and oversight, what a "backup" is is too convoluted to ever be simplified to "is there a backup."
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@Dashrender said in Unitrends and Office365:
OK sure, I'll grant you that - but the ultimate end user (me the IT person managing this system) is - can I restore when something bad happens on my side - and the answer is NO - I can not.
Is it? Because if something REALLY bad happens, you can. So I see the answer as yes. Quite clearly.
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@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
So bottom line, your end users don't have backups. Your business doesn't have backups. Only IT has backups by your definition.
Is that not the department that should handle managing backups?
Yes, but you defined access to backups by you, the end user as what makes something a backup, not to the IT department, which is Microsoft in this case.
LOL - I still consider myself an IT department in this case, and clearly I don't have access to those backups.
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@Dashrender said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
So bottom line, your end users don't have backups. Your business doesn't have backups. Only IT has backups by your definition.
Is that not the department that should handle managing backups?
Yes, but you defined access to backups by you, the end user as what makes something a backup, not to the IT department, which is Microsoft in this case.
LOL - I still consider myself an IT department in this case, and clearly I don't have access to those backups.
He doesn't have access to the backups made by Microsoft.
Edit: I am also acting as an IT Department for this discussion, not just an end-user.
