What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?
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@dashrender said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@rojoloco said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
other speakers, because that's where the dialog comes out when you're watching TV/movies. Placement is still key, so it
My current system is 2 in wall B&W front wall speakers and a B&W in wall center channel. I have a pair of rears, I added them last year, don't recall the brand. I don't have a sub yet. Wife is not looking forward to me adding one.
So your wife hates the idea of having a true cinematic experience at home? Surround sound is all wrong when you leave out the .1 part.
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@scottalanmiller said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@jmoore said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@scottalanmiller said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@jmoore said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@dashrender said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@jmoore said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@dashrender said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@rojoloco said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@dashrender They have a 5 channel amp that's 499. That would knock out the amp side, but I think your needs would be easily met by a simple, all-in-one AV receiver.
So is there any real benefit to using a $600 processor and a $500 amp at this level compared to my $600 receiver?
Also, what is the life expectancy from either the processor or the amp?
the benefit will be better sound and longer lasting equipment. when you bunch everything up together in a receiver you will get 5-10 years from them on average because of all the heat. with separate components you will get double and longer. I have a friend who has Mcintosh and those must be approaching 30-40 years by now and still work great. receivers just don't last that long because of the heat build up
Not exactly a fair comparison with Mcintosh there.
I got 10 years out of my last receiver, and I replaced it not because it failed, but because I wanted/needed 4K passthrough. Heck come to think of it, I have a 20+ year old Pioneer receiver in the garage running that setup just fine.
If, if I was an audiophile splitting this stuff out (even at the higher cost) would likely be valuable because I could retain the value of the less frequently swapped parts (amps, etc), while only swapping the parts that frequently get updated (processor).
But as mentioned, my receiver cost $600. That's it, one and done. The above listed processor alone is $600, then we tossed in $1600 for amps - trashing the listed $1500 budget.
Considering my needs, it's not providing real value to me personally. Those more into audio than I, Please enjoy the benefits of splitting those things out.
Understand that, its hardly ever fair when comparing against a Mcintosh. Anyway when i get time I will post again now that I know your requirements better.
I consider McIntosh a gateway product. Good stuff, but on the low end of hi fi mostly. Well known like stuff at Best Buy almost. Not quite, but in that range.
we may not be talking about the same company then. back in the 70's and 80's this stuff cost thousands for a single piece
Same company. It's expensive, but not super high end. It's often used in AV shops to demo "higher than normal" quality gear. It's like a gateway drug, mostly. It's high end gear that creeps down into more normal commodity shops.
yes expensive but not crazy. we are talking 5-10k a piece. super expensive stuff can be several times that but not sound any noticeably better. I have a higher opinion of them than you do and thats fine. every listener is different
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@rojoloco said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@dashrender said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@rojoloco said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
other speakers, because that's where the dialog comes out when you're watching TV/movies. Placement is still key, so it
My current system is 2 in wall B&W front wall speakers and a B&W in wall center channel. I have a pair of rears, I added them last year, don't recall the brand. I don't have a sub yet. Wife is not looking forward to me adding one.
So your wife hates the idea of having a true cinematic experience at home? Surround sound is all wrong when you leave out the .1 part.
My wife couldn't see any difference when we upgraded to HD TV.. she finally admitted a noticeable difference going to 4K.
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@rojoloco said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@dashrender said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@rojoloco said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
other speakers, because that's where the dialog comes out when you're watching TV/movies. Placement is still key, so it
My current system is 2 in wall B&W front wall speakers and a B&W in wall center channel. I have a pair of rears, I added them last year, don't recall the brand. I don't have a sub yet. Wife is not looking forward to me adding one.
So your wife hates the idea of having a true cinematic experience at home? Surround sound is all wrong when you leave out the .1 part.
Yeah, it's kind of needed as it is the effects channel.
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@dashrender said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@scottalanmiller said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@rojoloco said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@scottalanmiller said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
Simple surround sound improvement tip... if you don't need it due to crappy seating, simply remove the center speaker for improved sound quality. The extra center channel is the biggest source of audio quality loss in those setups.
Well.... it's a detriment to 2 channel music. I would recommend getting a center channel that is a grade or two better than the other speakers, because that's where the dialog comes out when you're watching TV/movies. Placement is still key, so it depends on the seating arrangement as Scott said. But if you can mount all the speakers in the "right" places, a good center channel will improve things greatly.
My surround system has 4x Polk towers, 1x dual 6" + tweeter center, also Polk, and 1x Polk 150w / 12 inch powered sub. My cheap Harmon/Kardon receiver is soon to be replaced because the display died. Music system is an old Fisher receiver/amp (cheap and sounds amazing), some old JVC 3-way towers with 12" woofers and an old pair of Castle Durhams (audiophile grade bookshelf speakers from UK. I picked them up for $100 because they're beat up and they didn't know what they had).
Even that the voice comes from there, you want it as high quality as possible and the center channel detracts from that. The human ear doesn't work in such a way as to make it sound better even with the speaker, even with the intention of it coming from there. You can get better blending and clarity from removing the speaker.
Assuming the audio mixers mix the sound with the expectation of a center channel - how does that audio get blended to the mains?
By not blending it that way, obviously.
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@dashrender said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@rojoloco said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
other speakers, because that's where the dialog comes out when you're watching TV/movies. Placement is still key, so it
My current system is 2 in wall B&W front wall speakers and a B&W in wall center channel. I have a pair of rears, I added them last year, don't recall the brand. I don't have a sub yet. Wife is not looking forward to me adding one.
yeah wives never like subs for some reason
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@dashrender said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@rojoloco said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@dashrender said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@rojoloco said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
other speakers, because that's where the dialog comes out when you're watching TV/movies. Placement is still key, so it
My current system is 2 in wall B&W front wall speakers and a B&W in wall center channel. I have a pair of rears, I added them last year, don't recall the brand. I don't have a sub yet. Wife is not looking forward to me adding one.
So your wife hates the idea of having a true cinematic experience at home? Surround sound is all wrong when you leave out the .1 part.
My wife couldn't see any difference when we upgraded to HD TV.. she finally admitted a noticeable difference going to 4K.
That makes no sense and implies she thinks that she can just lie to you. The jump from SD to HD was massively more visible to the eye than the jump from 1080p to 4K.
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@jmoore said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@dashrender said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@rojoloco said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
other speakers, because that's where the dialog comes out when you're watching TV/movies. Placement is still key, so it
My current system is 2 in wall B&W front wall speakers and a B&W in wall center channel. I have a pair of rears, I added them last year, don't recall the brand. I don't have a sub yet. Wife is not looking forward to me adding one.
yeah wives never like subs for some reason
Mine sure likes having them. She wants the windows to rattle.
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@scottalanmiller said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@dashrender said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@scottalanmiller said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@rojoloco said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@scottalanmiller said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
Simple surround sound improvement tip... if you don't need it due to crappy seating, simply remove the center speaker for improved sound quality. The extra center channel is the biggest source of audio quality loss in those setups.
Well.... it's a detriment to 2 channel music. I would recommend getting a center channel that is a grade or two better than the other speakers, because that's where the dialog comes out when you're watching TV/movies. Placement is still key, so it depends on the seating arrangement as Scott said. But if you can mount all the speakers in the "right" places, a good center channel will improve things greatly.
My surround system has 4x Polk towers, 1x dual 6" + tweeter center, also Polk, and 1x Polk 150w / 12 inch powered sub. My cheap Harmon/Kardon receiver is soon to be replaced because the display died. Music system is an old Fisher receiver/amp (cheap and sounds amazing), some old JVC 3-way towers with 12" woofers and an old pair of Castle Durhams (audiophile grade bookshelf speakers from UK. I picked them up for $100 because they're beat up and they didn't know what they had).
Even that the voice comes from there, you want it as high quality as possible and the center channel detracts from that. The human ear doesn't work in such a way as to make it sound better even with the speaker, even with the intention of it coming from there. You can get better blending and clarity from removing the speaker.
Assuming the audio mixers mix the sound with the expectation of a center channel - how does that audio get blended to the mains?
By not blending it that way, obviously.
Educate me then, don't just stand there and tell me I'm wrong.
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@scottalanmiller said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@jmoore said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@dashrender said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@rojoloco said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
other speakers, because that's where the dialog comes out when you're watching TV/movies. Placement is still key, so it
My current system is 2 in wall B&W front wall speakers and a B&W in wall center channel. I have a pair of rears, I added them last year, don't recall the brand. I don't have a sub yet. Wife is not looking forward to me adding one.
yeah wives never like subs for some reason
Mine sure likes having them. She wants the windows to rattle.
Lucky bum!
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@dashrender said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@scottalanmiller said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@dashrender said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@scottalanmiller said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@rojoloco said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@scottalanmiller said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
Simple surround sound improvement tip... if you don't need it due to crappy seating, simply remove the center speaker for improved sound quality. The extra center channel is the biggest source of audio quality loss in those setups.
Well.... it's a detriment to 2 channel music. I would recommend getting a center channel that is a grade or two better than the other speakers, because that's where the dialog comes out when you're watching TV/movies. Placement is still key, so it depends on the seating arrangement as Scott said. But if you can mount all the speakers in the "right" places, a good center channel will improve things greatly.
My surround system has 4x Polk towers, 1x dual 6" + tweeter center, also Polk, and 1x Polk 150w / 12 inch powered sub. My cheap Harmon/Kardon receiver is soon to be replaced because the display died. Music system is an old Fisher receiver/amp (cheap and sounds amazing), some old JVC 3-way towers with 12" woofers and an old pair of Castle Durhams (audiophile grade bookshelf speakers from UK. I picked them up for $100 because they're beat up and they didn't know what they had).
Even that the voice comes from there, you want it as high quality as possible and the center channel detracts from that. The human ear doesn't work in such a way as to make it sound better even with the speaker, even with the intention of it coming from there. You can get better blending and clarity from removing the speaker.
Assuming the audio mixers mix the sound with the expectation of a center channel - how does that audio get blended to the mains?
By not blending it that way, obviously.
Educate me then, don't just stand there and tell me I'm wrong.
Like many things we discuss. You assume X will happen and you wonder how we can fix the issue caused by it. I point out that you have a false assumption and that X will not happen. Then you tell me that that is not helpful. Then we go round and round and eventually you realize what I said and realize that it explained everything in one sentence.
Your base assumption is false, ergo there is nothing to explain other than that one thing.
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@scottalanmiller said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@dashrender said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@rojoloco said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@dashrender said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@rojoloco said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
other speakers, because that's where the dialog comes out when you're watching TV/movies. Placement is still key, so it
My current system is 2 in wall B&W front wall speakers and a B&W in wall center channel. I have a pair of rears, I added them last year, don't recall the brand. I don't have a sub yet. Wife is not looking forward to me adding one.
So your wife hates the idea of having a true cinematic experience at home? Surround sound is all wrong when you leave out the .1 part.
My wife couldn't see any difference when we upgraded to HD TV.. she finally admitted a noticeable difference going to 4K.
That makes no sense and implies she thinks that she can just lie to you. The jump from SD to HD was massively more visible to the eye than the jump from 1080p to 4K.
yep your absolutely right, it will proabbaly be the largest jump we will ever see
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@dashrender said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@scottalanmiller said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@jmoore said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@dashrender said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@rojoloco said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
other speakers, because that's where the dialog comes out when you're watching TV/movies. Placement is still key, so it
My current system is 2 in wall B&W front wall speakers and a B&W in wall center channel. I have a pair of rears, I added them last year, don't recall the brand. I don't have a sub yet. Wife is not looking forward to me adding one.
yeah wives never like subs for some reason
Mine sure likes having them. She wants the windows to rattle.
Lucky bum!
geez if my wife hears it she just leaves
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@jmoore said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@scottalanmiller said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@dashrender said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@rojoloco said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@dashrender said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@rojoloco said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
other speakers, because that's where the dialog comes out when you're watching TV/movies. Placement is still key, so it
My current system is 2 in wall B&W front wall speakers and a B&W in wall center channel. I have a pair of rears, I added them last year, don't recall the brand. I don't have a sub yet. Wife is not looking forward to me adding one.
So your wife hates the idea of having a true cinematic experience at home? Surround sound is all wrong when you leave out the .1 part.
My wife couldn't see any difference when we upgraded to HD TV.. she finally admitted a noticeable difference going to 4K.
That makes no sense and implies she thinks that she can just lie to you. The jump from SD to HD was massively more visible to the eye than the jump from 1080p to 4K.
yep your absolutely right, it will proabbaly be the largest jump we will ever see
SD lasted for SO long. It's ridiculous that it never got updated. I mean, it kind of did, with colour. But still.
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@scottalanmiller said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@dashrender said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@rojoloco said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@dashrender said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@rojoloco said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
other speakers, because that's where the dialog comes out when you're watching TV/movies. Placement is still key, so it
My current system is 2 in wall B&W front wall speakers and a B&W in wall center channel. I have a pair of rears, I added them last year, don't recall the brand. I don't have a sub yet. Wife is not looking forward to me adding one.
So your wife hates the idea of having a true cinematic experience at home? Surround sound is all wrong when you leave out the .1 part.
My wife couldn't see any difference when we upgraded to HD TV.. she finally admitted a noticeable difference going to 4K.
That makes no sense and implies she thinks that she can just lie to you. The jump from SD to HD was massively more visible to the eye than the jump from 1080p to 4K.
While it's always possible that she was lying, not sure what she would have to gain by it. The purchase was already made, lying would only serve to possible make me feel bad about the purchase - again a possibility, but then, why be with me if her goal is to make me feel bad?
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@scottalanmiller said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@rojoloco said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@scottalanmiller said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
Simple surround sound improvement tip... if you don't need it due to crappy seating, simply remove the center speaker for improved sound quality. The extra center channel is the biggest source of audio quality loss in those setups.
Well.... it's a detriment to 2 channel music. I would recommend getting a center channel that is a grade or two better than the other speakers, because that's where the dialog comes out when you're watching TV/movies. Placement is still key, so it depends on the seating arrangement as Scott said. But if you can mount all the speakers in the "right" places, a good center channel will improve things greatly.
My surround system has 4x Polk towers, 1x dual 6" + tweeter center, also Polk, and 1x Polk 150w / 12 inch powered sub. My cheap Harmon/Kardon receiver is soon to be replaced because the display died. Music system is an old Fisher receiver/amp (cheap and sounds amazing), some old JVC 3-way towers with 12" woofers and an old pair of Castle Durhams (audiophile grade bookshelf speakers from UK. I picked them up for $100 because they're beat up and they didn't know what they had).
Even that the voice comes from there, you want it as high quality as possible and the center channel detracts from that. The human ear doesn't work in such a way as to make it sound better even with the speaker, even with the intention of it coming from there. You can get better blending and clarity from removing the speaker.
Disagreed. I've tested it extensively, with many setups, many different speakers. For surround sound encoded TV/movies, excluding the center channel makes me need to turn on captioning because the front center dialog disappears. You certainly don't want the center channel cranked up, but I have zero complaints about clarity, blending, or sound placement in my current setup. Without the center, you mostly just get the reverb from the dialog, which makes it washy and hard to distinguish.
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Center channels are simply a mono channel, nothing more. Mono is played through stereo speakers by sending the channel to both speakers evenly. It's the simplest processing in audio, you can do it with wires alone by hand. All processors when they don't detect a center channel or it is disabled simply send the center channel to the fronts. That's the entirety of the processes involved in removing a center channel.
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@rojoloco said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@scottalanmiller said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@rojoloco said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@scottalanmiller said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
Simple surround sound improvement tip... if you don't need it due to crappy seating, simply remove the center speaker for improved sound quality. The extra center channel is the biggest source of audio quality loss in those setups.
Well.... it's a detriment to 2 channel music. I would recommend getting a center channel that is a grade or two better than the other speakers, because that's where the dialog comes out when you're watching TV/movies. Placement is still key, so it depends on the seating arrangement as Scott said. But if you can mount all the speakers in the "right" places, a good center channel will improve things greatly.
My surround system has 4x Polk towers, 1x dual 6" + tweeter center, also Polk, and 1x Polk 150w / 12 inch powered sub. My cheap Harmon/Kardon receiver is soon to be replaced because the display died. Music system is an old Fisher receiver/amp (cheap and sounds amazing), some old JVC 3-way towers with 12" woofers and an old pair of Castle Durhams (audiophile grade bookshelf speakers from UK. I picked them up for $100 because they're beat up and they didn't know what they had).
Even that the voice comes from there, you want it as high quality as possible and the center channel detracts from that. The human ear doesn't work in such a way as to make it sound better even with the speaker, even with the intention of it coming from there. You can get better blending and clarity from removing the speaker.
Disagreed. I've tested it extensively, with many setups, many different speakers. For surround sound encoded TV/movies, excluding the center channel makes me need to turn on captioning because the front center dialog disappears. You certainly don't want the center channel cranked up, but I have zero complaints about clarity, blending, or sound placement in my current setup. Without the center, you mostly just get the reverb from the dialog, which makes it washy and hard to distinguish.
The center cannot, it's impossible, have the same placement as the fronts. There is no way to make it sound as good with a center. It's impossible. You can make it "good", but you can't make it "as good".
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@scottalanmiller said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
you have a false assumption and that X will not happen. Then you tell me that that is not helpful. Then we go round and round
/sigh - ok my assumption was that the audio has to be blended into the mains.
OK sir - please, inform me where the speech track will come from so we can hear it if there is no center channel?
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@dashrender said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
@scottalanmiller said in What do you like for a non expensive audio setup for surround sound TV/movies?:
you have a false assumption and that X will not happen. Then you tell me that that is not helpful. Then we go round and round
/sigh - ok my assumption was that the audio has to be blended into the mains.
OK sir - please, inform me where the speech track will come from so we can hear it if there is no center channel?
The fronts, of course. The things that produce all of the sound. The ones pointed at your ears instead of at your face. The ones that, in theory, have equal placement so that they have matching colour.
