Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD



  • https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/18/short-seller-andrew-left-calls-ubiquiti-his-next-big-fraud.html

    http://www.citronresearch.com/citron-exposes-ubiquiti-networks/

    To be clear, this isn't about their products being bad, just that some apparently are finding it hard to believe the numbers. I'm still working through link 2 at the moment, but wanted to see what others thought as well.



  • I wouldn't put a lot of weight into it. The solutions offered by Ubiquiti are extremely varied (because they are catering to a huge market space).

    They aren't focused solely on Enterprise, or SMB, but literally have a product for every market space. Also the product is rock solid, with great performance.

    Not to mention you have to question the motives of a person who is invested in seeing a stock take a dive.



  • Not that I yet believe that Ubiquiti is a fraud - it has bothered me how much they've jumped into home networking gear as of late. I can't explain why it bothers me, only that it does. They seem to still have work to do on their enterprise devices (at least on the Unifi side) yet they are dividing their attention between Unifi and their home lines - perhaps they are two completely different departments, but still.



  • @dashrender said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:

    Not that I yet believe that Ubiquiti is a fraud - it has bothered me how much they've jumped into home networking gear as of late. I can't explain why it bothers me, only that it does. They seem to still have work to do on their enterprise devices (at least on the Unifi side) yet they are dividing their attention between Unifi and their home lines - perhaps they are two completely different departments, but still.

    Or are they markets that intertwine? The only real oddball that I see Ubiquiti getting involved in is the camera thing. That one doesn't make a lot of sense to me.



  • This is certainly a big deal. Because if they are truly not financially stable with all of this stuff then it does not matter how good the core business is or was. If true, it will likely take the entire company down. good products and all.



  • Both of those links are basically saying that the company is a huge financial fraud.

    The guy being interviewed in the first link actually states that the company's original core WISP business was solid and not what was in question here.



  • @coliver said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:

    @dashrender said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:

    Not that I yet believe that Ubiquiti is a fraud - it has bothered me how much they've jumped into home networking gear as of late. I can't explain why it bothers me, only that it does. They seem to still have work to do on their enterprise devices (at least on the Unifi side) yet they are dividing their attention between Unifi and their home lines - perhaps they are two completely different departments, but still.

    Or are they markets that intertwine? The only real oddball that I see Ubiquiti getting involved in is the camera thing. That one doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

    From what I can tell, they've geared the cameras more toward SMB, not home users. Is it odd, sure.
    But back to my thinking, until Cisco purchased Linksys, Cisco didn't sell to consumers, Juniper doesn't sell to consumers, Pretty sure HPE doesn't market to consumers either.

    Netgear is the massive exception to the above. Netgear has always played in both pools.



  • @dashrender said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:

    @coliver said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:

    @dashrender said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:

    Not that I yet believe that Ubiquiti is a fraud - it has bothered me how much they've jumped into home networking gear as of late. I can't explain why it bothers me, only that it does. They seem to still have work to do on their enterprise devices (at least on the Unifi side) yet they are dividing their attention between Unifi and their home lines - perhaps they are two completely different departments, but still.

    Or are they markets that intertwine? The only real oddball that I see Ubiquiti getting involved in is the camera thing. That one doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

    From what I can tell, they've geared the cameras more toward SMB, not home users. Is it odd, sure.
    But back to my thinking, until Cisco purchased Linksys, Cisco didn't sell to consumers, Juniper doesn't sell to consumers, Pretty sure HPE doesn't market to consumers either.

    Netgear is the massive exception to the above. Netgear has always played in both pools.

    The Unifi Cameras are actually really nice. I was referring to the Unifi Pod? Or whatever it was called. The wearable camera.



  • My next question being if you believe there's a possibility this could be true, how does this affect your decision-making for future projects where you would previously have gone Ubiquiti without hesitation? Will you now look elsewhere or stick to them until more info arrives?



  • @dashrender said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:

    @coliver said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:

    @dashrender said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:

    Not that I yet believe that Ubiquiti is a fraud - it has bothered me how much they've jumped into home networking gear as of late. I can't explain why it bothers me, only that it does. They seem to still have work to do on their enterprise devices (at least on the Unifi side) yet they are dividing their attention between Unifi and their home lines - perhaps they are two completely different departments, but still.

    Or are they markets that intertwine? The only real oddball that I see Ubiquiti getting involved in is the camera thing. That one doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

    From what I can tell, they've geared the cameras more toward SMB, not home users. Is it odd, sure.
    But back to my thinking, until Cisco purchased Linksys, Cisco didn't sell to consumers, Juniper doesn't sell to consumers, Pretty sure HPE doesn't market to consumers either.

    Netgear is the massive exception to the above. Netgear has always played in both pools.

    I hate netgear in the business. It just does not belong. Every piece I have ever used generally has worked, but sucked to work with.

    Low end HP gear was better and only marginally more expensive.

    Not sure what HPE is doing with it all now.



  • @zachary715 said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:

    My next question being if you believe there's a possibility this could be true, how does this affect your decision-making for future projects where you would previously have gone Ubiquiti without hesitation? Will you now look elsewhere or stick to them until more info arrives?

    I will continue to use it because nothing is tied to their continued existence.

    Yeah future support may be gone, but one of the points of Ubiquiti gear is that there is no support beyond a 12 month warranty in the first place.

    The hardware is good. The management for the hardware is solid and not tied to the company continuing to exist.

    Also, if the company goes down financially, they will likely be forced to sell of assets. It will be entirely possible the core business gear will continue to exist under a new owner.



  • One other reason I will continue to use it is because, aside from the UniFi line, everytihng uses pretty standard and open source based core systems. So there is never going to be an issue with compatibility with other products.



  • @coliver said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:

    @dashrender said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:

    @coliver said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:

    @dashrender said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:

    Not that I yet believe that Ubiquiti is a fraud - it has bothered me how much they've jumped into home networking gear as of late. I can't explain why it bothers me, only that it does. They seem to still have work to do on their enterprise devices (at least on the Unifi side) yet they are dividing their attention between Unifi and their home lines - perhaps they are two completely different departments, but still.

    Or are they markets that intertwine? The only real oddball that I see Ubiquiti getting involved in is the camera thing. That one doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

    From what I can tell, they've geared the cameras more toward SMB, not home users. Is it odd, sure.
    But back to my thinking, until Cisco purchased Linksys, Cisco didn't sell to consumers, Juniper doesn't sell to consumers, Pretty sure HPE doesn't market to consumers either.

    Netgear is the massive exception to the above. Netgear has always played in both pools.

    The Unifi Cameras are actually really nice. I was referring to the Unifi Pod? Or whatever it was called. The wearable camera.

    Aww, yeah - that thing is just some kinda crazy!



  • Honestly it's Citron that looks like fraud. That article is straight out of Facebook "You'll be shocked to learn what happened next...." land. It's red flags of false journalism all over it.

    Do they make a point? Not one that I saw. Basically they sound jealous. Their complaints are that UBNT is doing well and they don't like the CEO. They don't complain about anything real. Just words used and the success numbers. And Citron goes on and on about how they expose more fraud than anyone. They sound like Donald Trump writing Facebook ad copy.



  • Remember that the article is generated by a guy that makes his money by making companies stocks fall. He's paid to make this stuff up.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:

    Honestly it's Citron that looks like fraud. That article is straight out of Facebook "You'll be shocked to learn what happened next...." land. It's red flags of false journalism all over it.

    Do they make a point? Not one that I saw. Basically they sound jealous. Their complaints are that UBNT is doing well and they don't like the CEO. They don't complain about anything real. Just words used and the success numbers. And Citron goes on and on about how they expose more fraud than anyone. They sound like Donald Trump writing Facebook ad copy.

    This is one of the biggest issues - The webpage screams I'm a fraud - I'm here to scam your money from you...

    I almost get the feeling like Citron was paid off by Ubiquiti's competition to make this claim.



  • @dashrender said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:

    @scottalanmiller said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:

    Honestly it's Citron that looks like fraud. That article is straight out of Facebook "You'll be shocked to learn what happened next...." land. It's red flags of false journalism all over it.

    Do they make a point? Not one that I saw. Basically they sound jealous. Their complaints are that UBNT is doing well and they don't like the CEO. They don't complain about anything real. Just words used and the success numbers. And Citron goes on and on about how they expose more fraud than anyone. They sound like Donald Trump writing Facebook ad copy.

    This is one of the biggest issues - The webpage screams I'm a fraud - I'm here to scam your money from you...

    I almost get the feeling like Citron was paid off by Ubiquiti's competition to make this claim.

    Or just by short sellers.



  • @dashrender said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:

    @scottalanmiller said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:

    Honestly it's Citron that looks like fraud. That article is straight out of Facebook "You'll be shocked to learn what happened next...." land. It's red flags of false journalism all over it.

    Do they make a point? Not one that I saw. Basically they sound jealous. Their complaints are that UBNT is doing well and they don't like the CEO. They don't complain about anything real. Just words used and the success numbers. And Citron goes on and on about how they expose more fraud than anyone. They sound like Donald Trump writing Facebook ad copy.

    This is one of the biggest issues - The webpage screams I'm a fraud - I'm here to scam your money from you...

    I almost get the feeling like Citron was paid off by Ubiquiti's competition to make this claim.

    Yes. It's clear that their target audience is people following a Facebook ad link.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:

    They sound like Donald Trump writing Facebook ad copy

    I may have laughed a bit too hard at this.



  • @coliver said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:

    @scottalanmiller said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:

    They sound like Donald Trump writing Facebook ad copy

    I may have laughed a bit too hard at this.

    That page was so bad, I literally read it in his voice.



  • Never even understood why short selling was legal.
    I certainly dont listen to people that do that as their sole source of income.
    That webpage is worse than one of those click bait articles on MSN i click accidentally sometimes when Edge opens.



  • @momurda said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:

    Never even understood why short selling was legal.
    I certainly dont listen to people that do that as their sole source of income.
    That webpage is worse than one of those click bait articles on MSN i click accidentally sometimes when Edge opens.

    @momurda said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:

    Never even understood why short selling was legal.
    I certainly dont listen to people that do that as their sole source of income.
    That webpage is worse than one of those click bait articles on MSN i click accidentally sometimes when Edge opens.

    Short selling has to be legal. How evil would it be to make you not allowed to set prices for selling things that you own? Think about that, if the market drops and it's illegal to sell and you are forced to hold until bankruptcy!



  • Short sellers typically don't own the stock they are selling.

    In finance, short selling (also known as shorting or going short) is the practice of selling securities or other financial instruments that are not currently owned (usually borrowed), and subsequently repurchasing them ("covering"). In the event of an interim price decline, the short seller profits, since the cost of (re)purchase is less than the proceeds received upon the initial (short) sale. Conversely, the short position closes out at a loss if the price of a shorted instrument rises prior to repurchase.



  • @momurda said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:

    Short sellers typically don't own the stock they are selling.

    In finance, short selling (also known as shorting or going short) is the practice of selling securities or other financial instruments that are not currently owned (usually borrowed), and subsequently repurchasing them ("covering"). In the event of an interim price decline, the short seller profits, since the cost of (re)purchase is less than the proceeds received upon the initial (short) sale. Conversely, the short position closes out at a loss if the price of a shorted instrument rises prior to repurchase.

    Yes, but you can't remove that part of the market. All investing is investing "against" something. You can't isolate certain types and limit it. Forcing people to only invest in growth and never in shrinkage is a huge problem.



  • @scottalanmiller Paid to make this stuff up, or just paid to find overvalued stocks and bubbles to catch on the way down when the bubble bursts? I know very little about this guy. This is the first I've heard of him and I understand how short-sellers and pump-and-dumpers work, I'm just wondering if there's any legitimacy to his claim or not.

    Personally, I'm in agreement with others that I'll continue using Ubiquiti moving forward as I watch this unfold.



  • @momurda Short selling is an EXTREMELY risky business, but it can potentially come with great reward as well. Although I've not personally shorted a stock/industry/market as of date, I have played with some strategies in the past using fake accounts and had success. I mean how else am I supposed to make money off of $SNAP if I can't short it??



  • @scottalanmiller said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:

    They sound like Donald Trump writing Facebook ad copy.

    Thanks a lot. Now my monitor has coffee all over it from laughing mid sip. Lol



  • @zachary715 said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:

    @momurda Short selling is an EXTREMELY risky business, but it can potentially come with great reward as well. Although I've not personally shorted a stock/industry/market as of date, I have played with some strategies in the past using fake accounts and had success. I mean how else am I supposed to make money off of $SNAP if I can't short it??

    Investing period is risky, it's government sanctioned gambling. There is nothing to prove that the business just isn't absconding with your money once you "buy stock" in them.



  • @dustinb3403 totally untrue.
    Gambling, the house always wins over time.
    Investing, the investor always wins over time.



  • @momurda said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:

    Never even understood why short selling was legal.
    I certainly dont listen to people that do that as their sole source of income.
    That webpage is worse than one of those click bait articles on MSN i click accidentally sometimes when Edge opens.

    Stock markets exist for speculation. If you think shorting is bad google "scalping futures".


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